A Beginner's Guide to Packrafting: A Q&A With Steve “Doom” Fassbinder, Head Guide & Co-Owner of Four Corners Guides Packrafting & Bikerafting
the four corners Guides Beginner's Guide to packrafting podcast
In the first episode of our new podcast, “A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting,” Four Corners Guides owners Lizzy Scully and Steve “Doom” Fassbinder discuss his packrafting history and his tips for beginners. They talk about how Doom got into packrafting and the process of becoming experienced packrafter. And they discuss the necessary equipment for packrafting, such as boats, PFDs, helmets, and dry suits. Doom emphasizes the importance of honesty and communication when paddling with others. And he offers advice on how to choose appropriate rivers and trips based on skill level. He also mentions the benefits of seeking guidance and training from experienced packrafters. Finally, they discuss the importance of having fun and enjoying the packrafting experience.
Stay tuned for Episode 2 where we talk with Tony Miely owner 4Corners Riversports, about different types of whitewater packrafting equipment.
the main Q&A questions
- How did you get into packrafting?
- How did you develop into the packrafter that you are today?
- What was the process of you turning into just a packrafter?
- Was there any sort of tipping point where you really started to dive into more bigger and better packrafting adventures?
- Did your desire to do the Grand Canyon have any impact on your desire to pursue more whitewater boating and more boating skills?
- If somebody asked you how to get into packrafting, what would you recommend?
- So get a boat and what else?
- What is in your packrafting kit?
- What sorts of clothes do you wear in different environments for packrafting?
- How about if you are going on a multi-day backpacking or bikepacking trip, What are some ways that you lighten your load?
- Do people need to take Swiftwater rescue courses?
- Certification versus non-certification?
- How do you decide where to go when you’re packrafting?
- How do you decide where to go packrafting as an advanced boater?
- If you don’t know what your ability is, then what should you to?
- When is it safe for you to packraft by yourself?
- What have been your favorite packrafting trips and why?
- What are some things that people should watch out for as they begin packrafting?
Transcription of the Podcast
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (00:13):
Hey y’all. This is Lizzy Scully, co-owner of Four Corners Guides and Co-author of The Bikeraft Guide with Steve Fassbinder, AKA Doom. We run a Multisport Adventure Guide service out of Mancos, Colorado. So we’re not going to get all fancy with this podcast. We’re just going to record some learned to packraft and learn to bikeraft Q&As with our guides and other experts in the industry. And we’ll throw in some fun adventure storytelling. Plus some fireside chats that we capture out in the field or at Scullbinder Ranch.
This is a catchall podcast. So if you have questions, comments or suggestions, comment here or email us. We hope you enjoy this casual connection to our world.
Our first episode is, “A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: How to Get Started,” a Q&A with Steve Fassbinder.
Doom (01:13):
How did you get into packrafting? I got into packrafting because I wanted to do a bike trip that required some crossings of some rivers. It was undoable by just swimming with your bike. I needed a legitimate tool to float across some rivers.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (01:27):
So you would say that you got into packrafting because via bicycles.
Doom (01:33):
A hundred percent, yes.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (01:35):
And then I’m curious how you developed into the packrafter that you are today. What was the process of you turning into just a packrafter?
Doom (01:44):
Well, there were numerous things. A lot of things happened. Happenstance. I lived in Durango at the time and the Animas River goes right through town. So I’d looked at the river. And I tubed it once with a six pack. But never had any interest in paddling or being a boater of any kind. That was a turnoff to me as a cyclist.
However, I now owned a boat, a packraft. It was an early classic, really stubby boat. And the river was always there. So I started dabbling in it. And the more you dabble in something like that, at least for me, the more I was drawn to it.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (02:25):
Okay. And so was there any sort of tipping point where you really started to dive into more bigger and better packrafting adventures?
Doom (02:35):
Ooh, tipping and diving, yes. I tipped a few times. And I dove and swam a few times in the play park. It looked very different back then.
Honestly, I couldn’t say there was this point where I was like, I’m really into more whitewater. Other than I started gluing my own thigh straps into boats and that gave me more control of my boat. And so probably once I started doing that, that was like 2011. Once you started gluing in thigh straps and having more control of your boat, that made a pretty big difference.
Doom (03:25):
And I worked at Alpacka during that time. So having a decked boat that was available was pretty helpful. And honestly, when I got a dry suit, it changed the way that I felt about the river. Because you could swim in cold water and not just be a liability.
I could self rescue and manage myself on the river when it was cold. Around here in Colorado it’s mostly cold until about August. Then for about a month it’s fine and then it’s cold again.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (04:02):
Did your desire to do the Grand Canyon have any impact on your desire to pursue more whitewater boatin skills?
Doom (04:13):
Yes, it did in a major way. I didn’t per se have a desire to go do the Grand Canyon. It was more organic like: Hey, someone did it in a packraft. They had a good experience. Now that person is involved in a group that has a permit. And they want to go and do a run of the Grand Canyon with packrafts. I was also at a level where I could join and be invited. That was a pivotal moment in my packrafting career.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (04:47):
So I’m going to go back to some of the basic questions. If somebody asked you how to get into packrafting, what would you recommend?
Doom (04:55):
Well, that’s a really interesting question. What is your objective? And what do you want to do with packrafting? Do you want to become a boater? Or do you want to do bikerafting things? Do you want to do hiking trips or fishing off your boat? There’s so many different ways to use a packraft, right? It’s Infinite
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (05:14):
What if I just read about something online? Oh, well that looks kind of cool. I’d probably want to do rivers in a packraft. What would I need to do to get into it?
Doom (05:26):
Well, yeah, depending on what your end goal was or just your initial goal, you would want to get the appropriate boat. If you’re taking your kids out paddling on flatwater with your family, you might want a Forager. Getting the right craft for what is going to get you started. The average person who’s like this packrafting thing is cool. It seems neat. I want to get into it. Getting a really basic boat, a classic, and just going from there and starting with a classic
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (05:59):
What’s a Classic for people who don’t know?
Doom (06:00):
A classic is an Alpacka Raft packraft. It is their standby boat… the thing they’ve made for many, many years, more than a decade. It’s just a great starter boat and very versatile. You can add decks or zippers or thigh straps to it accordingly. It’s just a great platform to start from.
Doom (06:28):
Get a PFD and a paddle. And if you are in a cold area, you are definitely going to want a drysuit. Helmets are also a plus if you’re doing whitewater stuff. If you’re doing lakes or class one, no helmet’s necessary. But Class II and up definitely a helmet, whitewater specific helmet.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (06:51):
So that’s the basic kit you tell us. What is in your packrafting kit? I know it’s probably a little more advanced than what a beginner would start with. But let us know what should people aspire to?
Doom (07:02):
Well, it’s all the same things. So one of the main things, like I’ve said, is a drysuit. I live in Colorado and when the water is up, it’s very cold. So a drysuit with full gaskets. Well, I prefer booties for the feet and then wrist gaskets and a neck gasket. You definitely want a relief zipper if you have to pee. Whether you are a female or any of the above or anything in between, you’re going to want a relief zipper of some sort. It makes a huge difference.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (07:36):
I want to interject here. For women, it’s really nice to have the butt zip.
Doom (07:40):
Yeah, the drop seat. Yes. Don’t buy the cheap dry suit with no relief zipper of any kind. You will hate it. And you’ll want to cut yourself out of it the first time you get into it and find yourself needing to pee. You’ll need to pee several times per day. If it’s warm, you don’t need that. But most river zones require dry suits, at least in the Western United States. I would suggest if you’re not sure about getting a boat, rent one. There’s so many ways to rent a boat for doing trips.
Rent a boat, seek out some sort of guidance, some sort of training. Four Corner Guides offers all that. If you do some of these guided trips, they often provide a boat. So you don’t have to just go out and buy a boat. You may not end up with what you want. But if you go and do some training first or have some guidance, you may decide: “Oh, okay, well this boat is right for me.”
So get some guidance and training first maybe before you buy a packraft. Then paddle often. And a helmet often comes with those training courses.
Doom (08:48):
Get a repair kit. Very, very, very helpful. Typically when you buy a boat, you get a repair kit with it. It’s kind of like part of the deal. A throw rope, but that’s a more advanced thing. If you don’t know how to use a throw rope or don’t know what a throw rope is, you have no business buying one. Seek training first and get a throw rope later for longer trips or trips that are group trips.
It’s really good to have a spare paddle. But this is all stuff that you don’t need to just go out and get these things because you want to packraft. This is the kind of stuff that you will acquire along your journey.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (09:28):
And what else is in your kit? I’m just trying to get an idea of what’s in your kit basically so that people have an idea of what they’ll be working into in the future.
Doom (09:35):
Well, PFD as well. And this can be something that’s a more basic PFD. But if you’re going to be more advanced, get a Rescue PFD. However, a rescue PFD is only necessary if you have taken swiftwater training or are planning on taking swiftwater training. A rescue PFD does not help you unless you actually have the training to use it. So yeah, a basic whitewater, PFD is fine. And then a whitewater helmet also. If you’re doing whitewater things. If you’re not wearing a helmet, you shouldn’t be on the river.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (10:09):
So can you talk about all the other little sundry items that you have in your kit, like whistle and pogies and those kinds of things and the uses of them?
Doom (10:18):
Yeah, so depending on river levels, cold time of year, pogies are hand warmers that live on your paddle. They Velcro on. If it’s really, really cold spring around here in the southern Colorado area, pogies are pretty much used anytime that you’re paddling from January, February, March, April and often all through May. Once June comes pogies are pretty much not used. A whistle on your PFD is also extremely helpful. Get a river knife mounted on your PFD. These are all very standard things that any river runner will have. Not specific to packrafting, just river running equipment.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (11:04):
What about booties? What are the benefits of booties?
Doom (11:07):
Neoprene booties can help protect the goretex booties on your dry suit. Add a little bit of warmth from an insulation to your feet. I use them when it’s cold for sure.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (11:16):
And are there any other items? I know some people use the nose plugs.
Doom (11:21):
I’ve never used them.
Doom (11:24):
Sunscreen major, major helpful thing. I carry it in my PFD in a pocket. Also I typically one sort of snack bar. As well, I carry lube with the zipper. If you have a zipper boat. Plus I carry a couple of spare O-rings for the valve cap. That’s Alpacka specific. Other people have other things depending on what kind of boat they have.
But O-rings. Oftentimes a spare cap for my boat is something that I carry my PFD. I’ve often loaned those out to people that aren’t even in my group or anything. Your boat looks like it’s going flat and they’re like: “I don’t hear any air coming out.” Yet they’ve lost their gasket for the cap. So I just give ’em a gasket and it’s super easy.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (12:07):
So how about clothes? What sorts of clothes do you wear in different environments for packrafting?
Doom (12:15):
Often a wool based layer under my drysuit. If it’s really cold I will put a synthetic layer. I like some sort of polypropylene fleece type layer on top and bottom under my drysuit. Then I wear a drysuit on top of that. Think about thin wool underlayers and then fleece after that and then dry suit.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (12:36):
What about the caps? Do you ever wear those warm neoprene caps?
Doom (12:40):
I rarely wear those neoprene caps. Often they cover your ears, which can be a very nice thing. But you can’t hear anything once you put that on, especially if you’re me. So that’s like a neoprene cap. I feel like with the ear covers is a winter only situation. You would never wear that in a shoulder season or summertime.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (13:00):
How about if you are going on a multi-day backpacking or bikepacking trip? What are some ways that you lighten your load? Let’s say you’re going with other people.
Doom (13:13):
Well, there are many ways you can lighten. So your boating kit is what you’re getting at, right? How do you lighten your boating kit? Yeah, yeah, so use a boat that is less white water savvy. So just an open boat with no deck, no thigh straps, no zipper, no nothing, no frills. You can get your boat down to like four pounds just by having a boat that’s varied, no frills. That’s a great way to save weight,
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (13:41):
But would you do that? You wouldn’t do that on a whitewater trip though, correct? That would be more of a flatwater trip or an easy slow moving river trip
Doom (13:48):
Generally? Yeah. It depends on your trip. You can get in the weeds here so fast.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (13:53):
How about in terms of sharing gear or other tips?
Doom (14:01):
Yeah, well lighter paddles. If it’s not a whitewater trip, you can use a super light paddle. Such as something that would not be approved or suggested for whitewater. Don’t bring your rescue PFD. Rescue PFDs weighs like four pounds and a basic whitewater. PFDs weighs about two pounds. Really big weight savings there. If you’re going to have a spare kit, a spare patch kit, everyone doesn’t need to bring one. You can share one with a group.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (14:44):
Would you recommend in general that people take Swiftwater rescue course?
Doom (14:48):
Not until they actually know how to manage their craft. They know how to paddle. So if you’re not comfortable in Class II, a Swiftwater safety course probably is not applicable to you. If you don’t feel totally comfortable in Class II, you shouldn’t bother with a swift water rescue course.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (15:12):
So how about certification versus non-certification?
Doom (15:15):
Well, certification means you’re looking to work in a whitewater scenario and you’re going to need that cert to have your job. Everyone else, you don’t need the cert.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (15:26):
How do you decide where to go when you’re packrafting. I guess start with not you, but if I’m a beginner packrafter who has never done this before. Or maybe they’ve done it once or twice and want to go out and do a little bit more, get a little better. What do you recommend that people do to figure out where to start?
Doom (15:45):
Find someone who is a paddler or a packrafter. They don’t have to be a packrafter. Instead they could be a paddler/kayaker, someone who’s versed in paddling duckies or even a big boat like an or rig. Find someone who’s river savvy and listen to what they say.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (16:07):
So ask for recommendations from people who are river savvy? So that could be even calling your local shop like 4Corners Riversports and asking them if they have recommendations.
Doom (16:17):
Yeah, absolutely. They may or may not have suggestions, but they probably will. Find someone who has run these rivers that you’re thinking about doing locally. Make friends.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (16:30):
How do you decide where to go packrafting as an advanced boater?
Doom (16:35):
Well, depends on the season. It depends on the winter. And it depends on the flows, or if it’s raining a lot. As well, it depends on where you are in the world. There’s so many variables to rivers. What’s your objective? Group size? Group dynamics? Skill level?Take all those things into consideration. And that’s how you decide.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (16:55):
So how do you decide then when you go out with your typical group of friends?
Doom (17:00):
Well, where do we want to go first? We’ll call it River X. I want to go do River X? Hey, do you want to do River X? Yes, I want to do X. And someone else is like: “No, I don’t want to do River X. I’ve heard about it and it’s way above my skill level.” And so they’re out. That’s a good paddler right there. Someone who’s like: “Nope, heard about it. That’s above my pay grade. I don’t want to do that.” That’s a really good boater. That’s a good decision.
Another person might be like: “Oh yeah, I heard about River X. I did it three years ago. It seemed easy. It’s boring to me. I won’t do it.” That’s also a good choice. They don’t want to be part of your group group dynamics. Having a bunch of people go on a trip where you have different skill levels. It also helps that everyone understands like, oh, this might be above or below my pay grade within. There’s so many ways to figure it out.
Doom (17:55):
That’s a terrible answer. I’m sorry. It
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (17:57):
Is a terrible answer, but it’s a question that people are going to be curious. How do you decide where to go packrafting?
Doom (18:04):
Well make sure that whatever you get on is within your skill and safety level. Many times it’s a little bit above. But if your group is generally. So if you’re going to go on a river trip and everyone’s a solid Class IV boater and you’re a Class III boater. And they’re like, we got your back. We’ve done this 52 times, don’t worry about it. We’ve seen you paddle, you can handle it. And there’s this one rapid and we’ll have you walk that. And they clearly know what’s going on. Then yeah, you can level up there.
But if they’re like, Hey, we got this permit on this river. But none of us have ever done it. We think we’re Class IV boaters, but you’re only a Class II boater. But you’ll probably be fine. Don’t go do that run. That’s a bad decision. These are kind of extreme examples.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (18:58):
No, but that’s good. And we had this discussion with the American Packrafting Association at our last safety meeting in that. And what you just said is a great example. At the Roundup, apparently people go into the group trips and they often level up. But they don’t necessarily communicate where they’re at clearly to the other people on the trip. And so they may be leveling up. But the people around them may one not know that they’re leveling up. The fact is that people feel safer because there’s a bunch of people who have boated that river. So they feel like, okay, I’ll probably be fine in this river with a bunch of good boaters. Unfortunately, there’s no long-term relationship with these people. As well, there’s not necessarily clear communication. And so these people are leveling up. And the possibility of disaster is high because they don’t know the people and there’s not enough communication.
Doom (19:57):
So build relationships, and that’s an example of a one-time thing. I’m going to join this group for one time. Yeah, build relationships, be honest. Be honest with yourself first of all. Then be honest with the people you go paddling with.
The worst thing you can do is say: “Hey, I’m a Class V boater, let’s go do this Class V run!” And there’s a bunch of strangers that are like, yeah, well, we know we’ve done this and it’s no big deal. And you come and you’re like, I can do this. And then you get to the first rapid and clearly you can’t do that. Then the rest of the run becomes this horrible cycle of a downward spiral. And that’s dangerous.
Be honest. Basically be honest with yourself, be honest with the people you’re going to go paddle with. When you’re honest with people, they will appreciate it more than you can ever know. Don’t hide anything,
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (20:50):
And if you don’t know what your ability is, then
Doom (20:53):
Ask questions.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (20:55):
And if you’re going with people onto a river that’s difficult… with people who are better than you. And you dton’t really know what you’re getting into? hat probably is a good indication that you don’t actually know what you’re doing. You probably shouldn’t go.
Doom (21:06):
It’s a good indication. Yeah, it isn’t the definitive one. But it’s a really good indication.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (21:11):
Yes. If you don’t know how good you are or how competent you are, then you don’t know how good or competent you are 🙂
Doom (21:17):
And also all the information for most rivers that most paddlers will run is readily available. If you haven’t looked into it ahead of time and done your homework, that’s a good indication that you don’t know how to do the homework. Because you aren’t a good enough paddler to even know how to look into things that you may or may not be paddling.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (21:41):
Right. Good point. Yeah. Okay, so next question. When is it safe to packraft by yourself? Or is it?
Doom (21:48):
I mean, this is a question that has no correct answer.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (21:52):
Well, for you then, when is it safe for you to packraft by yourself?
Doom (21:55):
Generally, if you feel uber confident. Like I’m 99.9% sure that I’m not going to have a swim that will result in me losing a paddle or a boat or being injured. Yeah. Or you’re 99.9% sure that if you do actually come out of your boat for some reason you will be able to self-rescue with all of your gear. And continue down the river. If you’re like 50/50, it could go either way. You better not be doing this by yourself. If you’re like 80/20, probably not a really good prospect either.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (22:46):
A hundred percent.
Doom (22:47):
You want to be damn sure.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (22:50):
What have been your favorite packrafting trips and why?
Doom (22:54):
Well, the very first trip that I did where I had boat that did everything I needed it to do. The bike trip. Also the Grand Canyon. The first time I did it was a very favorite. It was such a huge step up and a learning experience. Also a confidence builder. Great group dynamics. That’s just like happenstance in a way. Two, you go with or be chosen in a way, and that was a big part of it.
That was with Roman and Brad and Mike.
Yeah. And Ganey. Yeah. Super good trip. Yeah, really cohesive and amazing. I don’t know. I mean, those two trips were pretty telling in a way. Lots of other trips were extremely amazing.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (23:41):
What are some things that people should watch out for as they begin packrafting?
Doom (23:50):
Well, one thing we talked about a lot this year was be very careful about going on trips where people are confident that you will be fine on the trip. Meaning they don’t know. You don’t know them. They’re going to do this run, you’re going to join. And they’re like: “You’ll be fine. You’ve paddled X before. You should be fine!” But then the conditions are different than what X was. And they’re always higher than that. And dangerous.
Be careful of people who are overconfident if you’re going to join on a trip, especially if they’re leading the trip and you don’t know them.
Doom (24:33):
Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Be very, very careful about the partners you choose and what they’re proposed skills are. Also, be careful of high water. High water is different than medium water or low water. I mean, if you look at the stats like the higher the water is, the more dangerous it can be, typically. Not always. Typically though. Why? Well, to bring in the river, typically higher water means colder water typically. Features get bigger and scarier. Not always, not always, but typically they get bigger and scarier, more dangerous, basically.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (25:08):
Is there anything I’m not asking you that you want to share with me or share with beginners? People getting into the sport?
Doom (25:14):
Well, seek guidance, seek friends, be honest. Seek guidance. Obviously this is a selling point for Four Corners guides. But seek training. And look for people who are doing training that is legit. We offer that obviously. And if you’re not having fun getting into this thing, there’s something’s missing. It could be numerous things. But if you’re always scared when you’re paddling it may be that you’re just paddling things that are too hard. It may be that the people that you’re going with are pushing you way harder than they should. This is something that happens all the time. or it may be that you don’t have the right equipment. This is kind of like, I’m going from one to five here.
The wrong equipment doesn’t mean that you’re not going to have a good time, but it can be a factor. Do you have a drysuit? If it’s cold and you’re swimming a lot… or the fear of swimming and you don’t have a drysuit. It’s a big deal. Having a drysuit is a game changer if you’re swimming. It’s a major safety component. Those are my quick ones. Great.
A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting: Lizzy (26:30):
Thanks so much for joining us. If you enjoyed this podcast, give us a shout out or a review on Apple Podcast or wherever you found us online. We’ll have transcriptions for all our podcasts on our blog at www.fourcornersguides.com. Cheers.