The Packrafting Life: Aka A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting Podcast

Your host, Lizzy Scully, is calling in from Scullbinder Ranch in the wild heart of Southwest Colorado — and yes, her life is exactly as adventurous as it sounds. Lizzy and her husband Steve Fassbinder run Four Corners Guides, a packrafting instructional guide service, and if that weren’t enough, she also serves as president of the American Packrafting Association. Basically, if it involves a tiny inflatable boat in a remote place, Lizzy’s your person.This episode has a special treat: a deep-dive gear review from expert paddler and all-around nice guy Tony Miely, owner of 4Corners Riversports in Durango, Colorado. Tony puts six throw bags through their paces — because when someone’s swimming a rapid, you really don’t want to be fumbling with a bad bag. 

Tony reviews six throw bags for packrafters. The Sockdolager Equipment bag features a large mouth and optional waist belt, while the River Station Gear 60-foot bag offers a reliable Cordura shell, which uses water-resistant quarter-inch Dyneema line. Among ultralight options, the Hyperlite Mountain Gear is the lightest but has a snug, slower-deploying hip pack. The River Station Gear hip pack is more versatile with accessory pockets, despite a shorter 55-foot rope.

Heavier-duty choices include the Salamander Golden Retriever, which has an eight-foot pigtail for boat-clipping, and the robust WWTC Classic 20-meter bag, which uses 3/8-inch rope for professional rescues. Weights for these bags range from 0.9 to 2.2 pounds, with prices between $62 and $190. Tony prefers the WWTC and Sockdolager for their ease of throwing, noting that conical shapes and wide mouths improve performance.

Read the show notes here!

Callum Lewis started Packrafting Scotland just a couple years ago with friend Jack Christian, to fill a growing niche and because every day on the river is a great day. In episode #17 we chat about how, when and why he started his new guide service. We explore the various rivers on which they guide, along with big adventures Callum plans to do on the rivers and lochs of Scotland. And we laugh a lot about Scottish slang, Scottish weather (you can have four seasons in one day… sounds like Colorado) and all the great things about Scotland (there are a lot). Check out the show notes on the Four Corners Guides blog.

Wow, so we’re all the way up to episode #15! And this absolutely was my favorite discussion/interview of the year. I learned so much from Sarah Histand, owner of Mind and Mountain, and Jule Harle, owner of Alaska Packraft School, that I will be incorporating into my own packraft instruction in 2026. I know this episode was geared toward women and understanding gender differences in learning, teaching, and course creation. But I feel and hope it will resonate with my male listeners as well. Whether you’re an instructor or a brother, father, husband, friend of a woman, you’ll definitely learn something about how you can create safer spaces for those females and non-binary folks you love, to learn and thrive in the outdoors. 

Find Sarah on Instagram @sarahmhistand and visit her website MindandMountain.co.

Find Jule on Instagram @AlaskaPackraft and visit her website AlaskaPackraft.com.

Jule & Lizzy are joining forces August 3-7 for a Women’s Week of Packrafting. If you’d like to register, please click here! And please let Jule know you found out about the course through the podcast. Thanks!

In this short conversation with Deane Parker, we discuss the making of the APA’s Be WaterWise Safety Series, the importance of safety in packrafting and more. We don’t have show notes to accompany pod shorts mostly because Lizzy is always so busy and cannot get to everything 🤣 But we do hope you enjoy listening to Deane’s awesome Kiwi accent and funny slang.

Listen here! 

In this episode, Lizzy interviews Rodrigo Alfonzo a Level 3 American Canoe Association Packraft Instructor and Level 4 Swiftwater certified, discussing his journey into packrafting and the significance of La Venta River, including its wonders, dangers and realities. They emphasize community involvement, safety and/or ACA training for local guides and communities, and the importance of preserving natural resources while promoting both Mexican and foreign tourism in Chiapas. Rodrigo shares future plans for his cooperative guide service, Packraft Mexico, training local guides and organizing events to enhance the packrafting experience in Mexico. You can also find Rod on @losabuelitoschiapas on Instagram.

In this episode, host Lizzy Scully dives deep into the intersection of queer identity and the great outdoors. Joined by guests Justin Yoder, founder of LGBTQ+ Outdoors, and Justin Bickley, an ambassador & packrafter, the discussion explores how packrafting serves as a unique, meditative, and engaging way to connect queer folks with nature.

Beyond just exploring the serene beauty of rivers, the conversation highlights the vital role packrafting plays in building a supportive and inclusive LGBTQ+ community. Through personal stories and adventure plans, the episode sheds light on the inspiring initiatives like the Armida Huerta Adventure Fund and LGBTQ+ Outdoors, which are focused on creating safe and welcoming spaces for queer people and women of color in nature.

What You Will Learn about queer packrafters & outdoors folks?

Listeners will gain insights into the challenges faced by queer people in the outdoors, common misconceptions about queer people in the outdoors (like straight people don’t think queer people like the outdoors! Except lesbians, who all drive Subarus. Seriously) and the transformative power of packrafting as a profound means of fostering connection, healing, and authenticity. The episode also touches upon how allies can contribute to creating a more inclusive environment and the importance of representation and visibility in the outdoor industry. Plus, how the outdoor industry can not only help increase participation, but also rake in the dough… 10% of Americans identify as queer… that’s billions of dollars, people!

Finally, we touch on some serious dangers facing queer folk in the outdoors and in general… such as  how our government is currently trying to erase and dehumaninze trans people and what can we do as part of the LGBTQ+ community to help them feel more welcome.  See the show notes & listen here!

In Episode 12 of The Packrafting Life (aka A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting), we talk with Dan Thurber. A Class V expedition paddler, Dan has travelled around the world on kayaking and packrafting adventures. He’s been an instructor at the Swiftwater Safety Institute for a decade and he has a a master’s degree and now a career in river mechanics and modeling. The American Packrafting Association says he is “an amazing instructor and advocate for river skills and safety.” He currently lives between the Pacific Northwest, where he works and paddles all summer and Tucson, Arizona, where he rides bikes and works all winter.

In this episode we talk initially about his background in paddling and instructing paddlers. And then we dive into a topic he discussed at a workshop at the APA’s 2024 Roundup in Idaho, Leveling Up—when packrafters are ready to get to that next level in their paddling. Some of the questions and topics we covered include:

1. Understanding the Performance Zone. What defines the four zones in the “performance zone.” How to move back and forth between those. And how to be conscious of where you are at. 
2. What are some common overestimations paddlers make that lead them to believe they are ready for harder water before they actually are?
3. In what ways is Leveling up different in the adventure sports of rock climbing, mountain biking, and skiing than it is with paddling rivers? And why is important to be conscious of these differences?
4. What’s are some useful things for paddlers to consider before deciding if they’re ready for the next step in difficulty?
5. What is the importance of mentors, courses or other forms of education in helping paddlers balance pushing themselves to improve while also staying within a safe learning curve? And how can paddlers find good mentors?
6. Why is catching eddies so important? And how does the skillset you need for catching eddies relate to the skillset you need for taking a 15-foot drop?

Click here to listen to the podcast and read the show notes!

At the end of 2024 we snagged an interview with Alpacka Raft Design Engineer Dustin Partridge before he left for three months of packrafting in Patagonia, Chile. We’re super stoked on Episode #11, the first full episode of 2025. Dustin is Alpacka Raft founder/owner Sheri Tingey’s right hand man, and a long-time employee at Alpacka. He came on board as the 15th or 16th employee and worked his way from flooring boats to learning how to build every piece and part of a packraft. And when it became apparently that both his pattern making and computer-aided design skills would make the company operate more smoothly and make Sheri’s job easier, she “stole” him from production.

In this episode, Dustin and I talk about Alpacka’s design process, his mentorship with Sheri, the design of the Valkyrie versus the Mage versus the other whitewater boats (and which boat suit which kind of boater), and the work he finds most difficult and is most proud of at his job. We hope you enjoy this conversation as much as we did!

Listen to Dustin or read the show notes by clicking here.

In Episode #10 of, A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting & Bikerafting, we talk with Alpacka Raft co-owner, Thor Tingey, about the hunt packrafting and packraft fly fishing scene. Listen to the full episode to learn more about how hunters and anglers have adopted and now use packrafts on their remote adventures, how using packrafts can save you money and make your hunt and fish adventures simpler, how growth and changes in the market have increased desire and need for packrafts and all the ways packrafts significantly increase access for these sportsmen and women. Also learn about the boats Thor and his mother, Sheri Tingey, designed for hunters and anglers, plus the real meaning of adventure. Hint: it’s the journey & the experience, not catching a fish or harvesting an animal. See the show notes on our accompanying blog post!

In Episode #9 (listen here!) of A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting, Thad talks about packraft fly fishing. Thad was an early adopter of packrafts, and a longtime cyclist, rock climber and fly fisherman. He recently packrafted the Kongakut River in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska to fly fish for char. In this episode we talk about how he got started with fly fishing and guiding, his multi-sport adventures, his new venture to teach packraft fly fishing on the Dolores and Animas rivers in Colorado in 2025, some tips for packraft fly fishing and, of course, his trip to the Refuge. Stay tuned because in episode #10 we’ll be chatting with Thor Tingey. Thor and Sheri Tingey spearheaded the development of the world’s first fishing-focused packrafts. We hope you enjoy episode #9!

In Episode #8 of, “A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting & Bikerafting,” Deane Parker talks about how he got into pairing bikes and packrafts on pretty hardcore whitewater from the get-go, in addition to his history kayaking and rafting Class V rapids, his raft guiding business in the 90s, his mountain bike adventures, his filming projects through Deane Parker Adventure Channel, and his family farm. One of the most renown whitewater bikerafters in the world, Deane is also an all-around super nice guy. We always have fun chatting with Deane. And after eight years of working with him on various projects, we really look forward to meeting him in person February 15-25, 2025, when we finally visit New Zealand for a 10-day expedition packrafting course Four Corners Guides is running with Deane and Huw Miles of Packrafting Queenstown.

Listen to the podcast here!

For episode #7 of A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting & Bikerafting, we decided to talk with Packrafting Queenstown owner, Huw Miles, about his life and his business and packrafting New Zealand’s South and North islands is like.

Well spoken and extremely knowledgeable about his adopted country, Huw shares stories about his favorite adventures, the wide variety of rivers available for beginner to advanced boaters, the first descent opportunities for the world’s heartiest packrafters, and the many highlights of paddling in New Zealand.

I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. I have some serious FOMO right now. 

Listen here!

For Episode #6 of A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafing & Bikerafing, we did interview with Julia Yanker, a long-time packrafter, life coach and Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, aka trauma resolution specialist. My primary goal with chatting with Julia was to really find out what can be done for adventurers who experienced trauma that now affects the other adventures they partake in. 

I had a terrible climbing accident six years ago that increased my levels of anxiety exponentially, no matter the activity I’m doing, but primarily in regards to packrafting. This manifests in an irrational fear of whitewater. For example, I’ve done the Grand Canyon twice. But despite that I have an unreasonable fear of the big waves, though I’ve swam a few dozen times on the Colorado, and I have always been fine. But still, when I even just think about the Grand Canyon now, my heart beats faster, my palms sweat, and I get a constriction in my chest.  No joke! I wanted to talk with Julia to see if there was anything I could do about this seemingly irrational fear. And she told me, yes, there is, in fact, a way to deal with it. So in addition to delving into her personal background and packrafting history, we talk about how to alleviate trauma experienced while adventuring. I hope you enjoy this podcast! Check out transcription and listen to the podcast here.

Today we’re talking with one of the most interesting and accomplished guys in the world of packrafting, Luc Mehl. He’s traveled more than 10,000 miles by packraft, ski, bike and ice skates, often utilizing two or more of those tools on the same adventure. He wrote the definitive guide on packrafting safety and skills. Every Packrafter should have a copy of The Packraft Handbook. And he’s one of the world’s best packraft instructors. He’ll absolutely hate that I’m saying these things. But as far as I and many others are concerned, he’s the man.

Luc is also someone I love having conversations with him. I always learn so much.  Today he and I are talking about a wide variety of subjects, but mostly focused around culture of safety issues, such as the risks and rewards of “leveling up” in packrafting, what “close calls” actually are and how knowing more about them can help the packrafting community (and other adventure communities) play safer. Plus we review a bunch of tools he uses to be the best partner he can be to the people he adventures with. Read the transcript and listen here.

Today for our fourth episode of A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting & Bikerafting, we’re bringing you an interview with Jeff Creamer. Jeff teaches Swiftwater Safety Institute rescue courses and tests and makes boats for Alpacka Raft. One of America’s top packrafters, he’s done numerous remote, challenging expeditions on up to Class V whitewater in the mountains, along with some creative trips pairing boats and skis. He’s also a Level 3 American Canoe Assoc. Packraft Instructor. We are stoked to have Jeff teach an annual Level 4, Intermediate/Advanced Packraft Mastery courses each May, along with Swiftwater Safety Certification courses run through the Swirtwater Safety Institute.

In the first 15 minutes of this episode we learn about Jeff’s previous life as an ocean canoe racer and PhD student. Then he talks about his packrafting mentors Dan Thurber and Mike Curiak, and his early adventures skiing, packrafting and backpacking. Finally, we dive into Jeff’s expeditions, how he plans for them, how he chooses partners, and more. Check out the show notes on our blog. Please note that we edited the transcription with a.i., so please forgive any weird errors. Thanks!

In the third episode of our Podcast, A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting, Four Corners Guides owner Lizzy Scully talks with renown Packraft Instructor Jule Harle. A long-time kayaker and packrafter and owner of Alaska Packraft School, Jule has been instrumental in legitimizing packrafting as a sport through her work as a guide and her work with others to get the American Canoe Association packrafting curriculum in place to accredit packrafting guides across the country. She volunteers with the Alaska Chapter of the American Packrafitng Association, and she was this year’s Golden Paddle winner. Check our all our scheduled women’s courses.

Read our blog post for details!

In the second episode of our A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting Podcast (& occasional YouTube video) Series, Tony Miely talks whitewater packrafting gear. While he doesn’t review the full spectrum of boats, paddles and helmets available (that would take hours!), he offers an overview of the gear people need to get started with whitewater boating. And he makes a few solid, high-quality brand suggestions. Tony is one of the long-time owners of 4Corners Riversports, the premier boating store in SW Colorado. He is also an accomplished Class V kayaker and all-around nice guy!

In the first episode of A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting, FCG owner Lizzy Scully interviews Head Guide Steve “Doom” Fassbinder about his packrafting history, his tips for beginners, how Doom got into packrafting and the process he went through as he became an experienced packrafter. He also talks about his gear kit and gear he recommends for beginners, along with the important of swiftwater safety courses (certification or non-certification). He emphasizes the importance of honesty and communication when paddling with others, the importance of seeking guidance and training from experienced paddlers. And he offers advice on how to choose appropriate rivers and trips based on skill level. Finally, he and Lizzy discuss the importance of having fun and enjoying the packrafting experience.