🎧Episode #15 The Packrafting Life! Gender Differences in Learning, Teaching & Packraft Course Creation with Jule Harle & Sarah Histand

Lizzy Scully (00:00:29):

Hello everyone. So we’re all the way up to episode number 15. This is so exciting, and I’ve got two more shorts in the works, including a conversation about bike rafting and pack grafting in the Northeast with Alejandro Strong owner of Pack Graft, Maine, and a conversation with guide Felipe Menis about pack grafting in Ecuador. But back to episode 15. This was absolutely my favorite discussion interview of the year. I learned so much from Sarah, his stand owner of Mind and Mountain, Angela Harley, owner of Alaska Pack Craft School, that I will be incorporating a bunch of new skills and techniques into my own pack craft instruction in 2026. I know this episode is geared towards women and understanding gender differences in learning, teaching, and course creation. But I feel and hope it will resonate with my male listeners as well, whether you’re an instructor or a brother, father, husband, friend of a woman, you’ll definitely learn something about how you can create safer spaces for those females. You love to learn and thrive in the outdoors. So I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Onward 

Speaker 3 (00:01:48):

Is the kind of vision for the topic to just generally talk about gender dynamics inside of Pack Crafting World or 

Speaker 4 (00:01:59):

Yeah, gender dynamics. I mean in adventure sports in general, but then focusing on crafting. I feel like Pack Crafting is and isn’t a microcosm of the greater adventure world, so I wouldn’t mind talking about that too. And I feel like it’s pretty different from kayaking paddling as well. So yeah, I think we could start more broadly, I guess, although I want to get a little bit on your backgrounds first. But yeah, so I might switch back and forth between Adventure sports and then specific to Pack Crafting also, if that works for you gals. Does that make sense? Does that sounds like a good idea? 

Speaker 5 (00:02:35):

Yeah, yeah, and I read through the questions. I think those are great. And I think if there’s other ones that come up, I think, yeah, the nature of having conversations. 

Speaker 4 (00:02:44):

Yeah, exactly. Well, why don’t we start by you introducing yourselves and telling me or telling the listeners a little bit about your background in adventure and in Pack crafting and And then we’ll go from there. So Sarah, do you want to start? 

Speaker 3 (00:03:01):

Sure, yeah, I can start. Yeah. I’m Sarah Heand and I live here in Anchorage. I was born and raised in Alaska and dabbled around with outdoor stuff, but in a very chill way as a kid, like little hikes and canoeing and things like that with my family. But started to get into more challenging stuff in my twenties. And let’s see, I think I started Pack Crafting, got my first pack craft in when I was maybe right around 30. I’d gone through a really hard breakup and was like, I need a reward for making it through this, and bought myself a pack graft. And I remember I really hadn’t done any water sports before that and got myself into some serious trouble pretty quickly on the learning curve with some kind of close calls and backed away. And I have been figuring out how to do it in a way that’s fun and safe ever since. On the professional side, I have mental health background, social work, masters, and also a fitness background. So I have a online business that I run now for outdoor rec that weaves the mental health into the fitness work. And these days I’m really excited about somatic therapy and am doing a lot on that side of things too. And to me, that all weaves together into this conversation that we’re about to have around outdoors and interpersonal dynamics and gender and all that stuff. So yeah, excited to be here with you all. And 

Speaker 4 (00:04:46):

Jewel, how about you? 

Speaker 5 (00:04:48):

Yeah, jewel Harley, it’s a treat to be chatting with both Sarah and both Lizzie, just having some Alaskan and some lower 48 connections. So I’m happy to be here, but I’ve been living in Alaska for 20 years, but I grew up in the Midwest in Iowa and growing up I was very corn fed. I was actually very overweight and not active or outdoorsy at all. And so I think a lot of coming into myself was discovering not just outdoor recreation, but trying to spend time in nature. So getting into water sports like Iowa, it’s landlock and there’s not really any water recreation besides flat water canoeing and beer drinking, maybe some motor boating. So I was a summer camp counselor when I was 19 in Georgia, and I saw Whitewater kayak and took my meager $200 a week paycheck, and I bought it and it wasn’t the boat for me, and I went out without any instruction and had some swims. I didn’t have a spray skirt or helmet on, just really didn’t know what was up. And that was really eyeopening, but also exhilarating. And I was like, wow, I found what I love, even though I was like, wow, that whole day was a close call. 

Speaker 5 (00:06:04):

But then I drove up to Alaska to pursue college, and I had that kayak on top of my little Honda, and I ran into someone in Toque and he’s like, oh, you’re kayaker. I was like, well, not really, but I’d like to be. And so he gave me some people’s numbers and this is I think the time before social media and Facebook groups and things like that. So I cold called these guys and they were so generous in helping me out and eventually becoming my friends. And I was also, I think the freshmen young girl. I don’t know anything about Alaska and I’ve got this kayak. So I feel really fortunate in that immediately I started off under really great mentorship, which is not what a lot of newer paddlers receive. And so I feel really, really lucky. And the timing of how I discovered pack rafting, it was the next year, so it was in 2007, I took a pack rafting block course with Roman dial and just got my butt kicked in every which way. 

Speaker 5 (00:07:09):

That was my first backpacking trip in Alaska combined with raft packing. And so that was a big two years for me, I think entering into both those sports at the same time. And I felt like I was so young and aggressive and I’m very aware that I’m was a small, petite female, and I was really, everything felt kind of hard as a learner, but two as a learner, but also trying to learn in Alaska, I feel like Alaska is a great place if you excel at whatever sport you excel at, but it’s a challenging environment to learn a sport, whether it’s skiing or boating or even backpacking. There’s just, I think more risks. So that was my introduction to outdoor stuff, coming to Alaska Pacific University and finding the right people at the right time. But I started pursuing guiding a year or so later, mostly teenagers on short trips. 

Speaker 5 (00:08:10):

But my background professionally, I was going to a PU Alaska Pacific University for psychology. But it’s interesting that love for nature, I pursued work as a wilderness therapist, that being with people outside is really I think where my heart’s been. And so the journey starting in Alaska with these outdoor sports, getting my butt kicked has really been I think the foundation for a lot of my teaching methodology and coming into these sports as an insecure on athletic female. And then the evolution over the last 20 years with practice and with mentorship and with taking time. 

Speaker 5 (00:08:54):

It’s been fun. I feel like I’m not the person I used to be, and that’s a big testament to finding mentors, the community and sticking with a sport or sticking with anything you’re drawn to. So I do a lot of work now running the Alaska Pack Raft school. This was our fifth season, and I’m currently in New Zealand doing an international tour where I found though for me, the bread and butter and the joy in life isn’t in just guiding somebody. It’s in, I don’t want to just show you, it’s not just follow me, but it’s like, let me show you how to do it. So that’s what I love doing with my time. And I still do a private part-time mental health counseling practice when I’m not traveling or out there doing water stuff. 

Speaker 4 (00:09:45):

Cool. Thank you. It’s interesting. I had a pretty different pathway than both of you gal getting into pack grafting. It was accidental. I got a job at Alpaca and Sarah Tingy iss like, Hey, you have to know how to pack graft if you want to work here. And I was like, oh, okay, cool. So she’s like, I’m going to pay for you to take this Women’s Swift Water course. Literally the first time I got into Pack Graft and the whole first day I was like, I felt sick and I didn’t want to be there. And then by the second day I was like, oh, this is really fun. It feels much better. I had kayaked before, but I was terrible at it and it scared the shit out of me, and I finally quit after many years of continuing to try to do it. I was a climber and I was good at it, and I thought I should be good at kayaking too. 

Speaker 4 (00:10:27):

And instead I hit a strainer in a really fast moving spring melt river and lost my boat and made paddle, and I quit after that. I was like, so anyway, I didn’t really, then I got into pack grafting. I worked at Alpaca and then I was dating Doom and I had a dozen mentors immediately, women and men. So I just feel like my pathway to get into, it’s really different from you girls. The next question I have is, and I’m actually the next question is about women and the specific things that Y all have done with women’s groups. It doesn’t matter if it’s pack crafting, I know Jewel, you’ve led retreats abroad, and Sarah, I know you’ve had women’s programming, so can you talk to me a little bit, both of you and maybe Jewel, you can start this time with the courses that you’ve done specifically for women. 

Speaker 5 (00:11:20):

And I kind of want to share how they started too, if you don’t mind. So those guys that I met when I moved to Alaska, I ended up dating one of them. And so I was always being taken care of, what better person to save you than your class five boyfriend? And so seriously. And so I felt like I always had this guide halo or boyfriend halo around me, and so it really enabled me to level up, I think quickly. But when we broke up this fear, I’d never known when I was on the water really fruited, and even though I know I could do it, I was just scared because in my head I’m like, who’s going to save me? And so just my whole, how I viewed water and my risk management and my fear really elevated. So I went down lower 48. 

Speaker 5 (00:12:07):

I was like, well, I just need to get better and get more confident. So I pursued opportunities where I could be on the water every day in less consequential environments. So for me, it was warm water in the southeast, and so getting confidence and getting skills and then really kind of seeing in the southeast, there’s so many lady boaters, there’s just more paddlers in the southeast. It’s kind of like how skiing is to Colorado, whitewater sports are to that part of the United States. And so I felt connected to a female community. There were rad boaters, there were new boaters, but there was so much transparency in their experience on the water. It was super inspiring. And I came back to Alaska and I’m like, where my ladies at? I was like, no, nobody, there’s not a ton of boaters up here. Okay. 

Speaker 5 (00:12:53):

So I continued having primarily male partners for a long time and I started working for other outfitters. This is I think, well before the American Canoe Association endorsed pack rafting as a discipline and well before I think Luke Mel got really popular, his work with the Pack Craft Pacific Swiftwater Rescue, the culture of safety wasn’t alive and well yet. And so I was kind of just making stuff up, but sharing what worked for me as an educator. But I really loved the connections I made with women who also had a similar story as mine. They felt like they were in this loving halo with their partner, but when their partner wasn’t with them, they were scared or a lot of their male partners would have been more athletic and might have experienced less fear. And so their ability to meet them where they’re at, there was a disconnect where a lot of the women in courses currently with the Pack Graft school, but also in the early years, it was a lot of women who tried to get into pack grafting, their partner tried to show them the way they got scared and we’re like, ah, oh, women’s course. 

Speaker 5 (00:14:06):

Cool. I can hang out with other women and we can learn together at a pace that feels more appropriate. 

Speaker 4 (00:14:14):

It’s really funny because this summer I went and did my crown jewel of my pack grafting career, which is upper animus, and I did not do it with Steve, and there were many reasons, but while on the trip, my cousin was on the trip and he does trips with both of us separately and together all the time, and he’s like, wow, you are so much more relaxed without Steve on this trip, and Steve is so much more relaxed when you’re not on trips with us. And I was like, huh, that’s so interesting. Because he gets so stressed out about he worries about me on Harder Rapids, especially when I had my bad back. He was worried about me swimming. I, and I get really scared, but it’s like with rock climbing, I used to climb all my big things with women and we’d cry on the wall, not all my big things. I had one really solid male partner and sometimes I’d climb with the male partner and he would just be like, he knew me really well. So he’s like, this is just something Lizzie has to do. But women are just like, oh times we cry and it’s not a big deal. But if I cry in front of Steve, he’s just like, oh, oh no. Oh no. Pull the fire alarm. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, Sarah, what kind of courses have you done specifically with women? And I know not background, your training and other things. 

Speaker 3 (00:15:32):

Yeah, right, because my training, so my online fitness training that has this mental health lens and outdoor rec focus is, I call it a women’s centered space. So men are welcome, non-binary folks are welcome, but we’re trying to kind of intentionally make a space where, which is so different from so many of the other outdoor rec spaces. And I set it up that way. My arc came through doing some, the Wilderness Classic is this backcountry, it’s not really race, but it’s a challenge. You start in one place and then you have to get to the end and there’s no route. You have to figure it out yourself. And there’s a winter version and a summer version. And my brother and I did the winter version a couple times together when we were in that same kind of era. It was after breakups and we were figuring out our lives. 

Speaker 3 (00:16:32):

And I had heard about this event my whole life as it’s one of the most challenging things that in the Alaska backcountry space, but I had only heard of men doing it. I don’t know that I knew of any women who had ever done it. And so when we were considering if this was something we’d be up for doing, I was super intimidated by that gender factor just by never having seen or heard of anyone like me doing it and not considering myself to be an ultra athlete either. So I was like, I don’t know. But we did end up that first time. We did end up making it to the end and had a really tough time, but it was really empowering too. And there were a couple other women out there on that course with me and then we learned a ton and went back the next year and had a much easier time. 

Speaker 3 (00:17:20):

And it was one of my biggest glass ceiling breaking moments where I hadn’t really thought that it was something I could even do. And then that second year we ended up finishing at the front of the pack with this other big group of people. So it went from like, can I do it to like, oh my gosh, I can absolutely do this. But I was realizing what a big factor, a barrier it had been for me to have not seen other people like me in that space before. So as I started setting up this training space, I was thinking, how can I help more people have that same sort of experience that helps push their limits or reach these goals that they’re wondering that they might feel like are out of reach, but come at it from a place of feeling supported and also in a community of other people that more closely resemble them. 

Speaker 3 (00:18:16):

So yeah, it’s been really interesting. It feels like it opens up because with training and mental health, we’re navigating all these internal experiences of our relationship to ourself. And so it feels like it helps make the experience feel a little bit safer and it’s more easy to normalize the experiences that we’re having. You all just talked about crying while we’re out there. The more we normalize that, the less shame there is when it happens and the more we can just be with it and keep going and still have a good time. And that experiences like that inside of a women’s center space feels like we’re able to come and have community around these experiences that we might feel like we’re real weird if we’re having them in isolation. 

Speaker 4 (00:19:07):

I’m curious, can you tell me the nuts and the bolts of how you made it a women-centered space, your training sessions? 

Speaker 3 (00:19:16):

I have some language about that on the registration page. So there’s an FAQ if men are able to do this. All my imagery is women and non, non-binary folks. The color scheme, there’s pink in there. There’s these kind of cues that I’m trying to put in there that aren’t necessarily saying it directly but kind of queuing you to think like, okay, this is geared in a certain direction. And then I often get questions from guys who are like, can I really do this? I don’t want to take up too much space. They’re often really checking to see if it’s okay. And then my answer to that is that they’re welcome to be there and to be present, but want to keep the space centered around the women’s experience. So I need them to be conscientious about how much space they’re taking up inside if they’re active in the community. Most people are pretty good about that. That’s cool. 

Speaker 5 (00:20:13):

I think it’s really cool. Men are welcome to attend and I’ve had conversations with, am I being exclusive in these offerings by saying it’s only this and not this? And I think that is a potential to do a disservice if it’s like no men’s over here and women’s over here where I think there’s a time and place for everything. But I think that’s so beautiful. It’s not women’s only. That’s cool. 

Speaker 4 (00:20:44):

Yeah, it’s a new concept that I hadn’t thought of actually. That is a really cool idea. Well, I’m going to move to the questions. Oh, sorry, I’m going to put my computer on focus. I don’t get any more messages, so I know there’s no black and white answer to this. And I talking to almost invited Annie, one of my guides to join us, but she said she has completely, she has that experience where she’s better at sports than her husband and she’s always been very included and welcomed, especially in the pack grafting community and feels like there’s not any different, I mean she understands that there are differences in how women and men learn and that sort of thing, but she hasn’t had the experience maybe I have and a lot of women have. So I know it’s not black and white. But in general, are there some general male versus female dynamics in adventure sports and especially in pack crafting that you’ve two have noticed. And maybe let’s start with adventure sports in general and then focus in on pack crafting and either of you can start. 

Speaker 5 (00:21:51):

Yeah, can I start? Is that fine? Sure, 

Speaker 1 (00:21:53):

There 

Speaker 4 (00:21:53):

We go. 

Speaker 5 (00:21:55):

And two, I love that these are generalizations and what we see often they’re, that’s how I got the word stereotype and there’s always exceptions and outliers. So I hope no one feels offended or if they don’t identify with what I’m about to say. What I’ve seen generally and very often is that whether it’s, especially in entry level sports, women might take more calculated risks and that age old phrase, work smarter, not harder. And I saw this a lot when I was raft guiding. It’s just like fact, I am not as strong as anyone else. I worked with being a petite female on a raft guide company. And so my strategies and techniques I needed to be different. I was physically unable to yard the raft with six passengers off the rock. I just cannot do that. And so the ability though for me to communicate with my team and get them to do paddle strokes or move around the boat, so we got off the rock together. 

Speaker 5 (00:22:55):

I didn’t have keyman strength to do those things. So I’ve seen as a generalization women invite more strategy and learning more strategy at the early levels because we can’t always rely on strength. There might not have as much strength as a lot of men out there. And what I’ve seen a lot, and this isn’t wrong or bad, but men like he manning with heman strength their way through things and the technique, the longer you do anything, you’re like technique will come, but not relying on technique or maybe being as interested in it at the beginning. And two, I think anyone can be a kinesthetic learner, but I see a lot of kinesthetic learning, especially in men. They want to do it and feel it and not have it be explained or taught or shown a lot of the time. That’s been my experience. 

Speaker 4 (00:23:50):

Cool. Interesting. And you, 

Speaker 6 (00:23:51):

Sarah, so interesting Jewel, it was really 

Speaker 3 (00:23:55):

Cool to hear. Yeah, I think with this way I’m running my business with women centered training. There seems to be a bigger interest in women to do more of the preparatory work, the cross training, and maybe even taking classes. It seems to me inside of the women female community that there is this sort of openness toward learning from other people and the desire to want to feel more prepared rather than going in and learning it on the go. That that’s maybe what you’re talking about with the experiential learning that maybe some men feel more available for. I wonder if that doesn’t come from this, oh gosh, this gender conditioning that we’ve all been exposed to inside of patriarchy. And even if we’re trying to break free of all of that, it feels like from super early ages it’s so common to see boys encouraged to just go do stuff and crash and fall and learn through making mistakes. 

Speaker 3 (00:25:10):

And to see us be really different with little girls and being be careful and make sure you’re just kind of teach from super early ages that they need to be cautious and maybe unintentionally probably, but passing on this sense of vulnerability or fragility. So I dunno, I think we’re kind of often inside of working with women often trying to recoup that sense of can I be, it’s true that there are risks out here, but how can I also connect with my strength and courage and fortification I feel like. But there seems like there’s often an openness with the people that I end up working with though to try to tackle those things both from a strength side and also a mindset side. 

Speaker 5 (00:26:03):

And I don’t know if you’ve witnessed this, so for me, being an educator for two decades, I’ve seen a shift in both of those dynamics where I think there is a lot of female empowerment and discover your strength and build confidence and you can do it. And then I’ve also seen more male learners want to learn more strategy and technique. So even in the 20 years I’ve seen these opposing gender traits work more towards the middle and everybody embodying more both. I don’t know if you’ve seen that too, 

Speaker 4 (00:26:40):

Honestly. That’s funny. As both of you’re talking, I have so many thoughts going on in my head because I feel like when I was in my early twenties and learning how to climb, I did take courses and I did want to learn how to do things and I had mentors, but I also just went and did stuff and scared the shit out of myself numerous times and almost died a few times and then shifted. And with pack grafting, it’s the opposite. I’ve just taken, so I’m in no hurry. I want to really understand how to go through a class three rapid, know my line, know where the eddies are, know where any of the dangers are, I want to know before I go as much as possible so that I have as likely a chance to make it through or if I don’t make it through to know where I can get out safely. 

Speaker 4 (00:27:30):

And I feel like that’s come with some age and experience. So I guess I think this is really multifaceted. I think it depends, but I also see with my business, I dunno about you Jewel, but most of our clients, we have half women and not quite half women and men, but almost half women and men. And I know that the pack grafting community is way more male than female, but we have a lot of women and a lot of them are older, mostly probably because the courses are expensive and they can’t afford, younger folks can’t afford, but a lot of women like my age or between 35 and 60. So sorry. Anyway, I feel like this is so multifaceted. I mean do you guys think age has a difference too and that’s reflective more in impacting 

Speaker 5 (00:28:18):

Big deal? Yeah, and I think adventure styles and learning styles well beyond gender, there’s so many things that go into it. And before you had said maybe it’s age, and for me I was more aggressive 20 years ago and I did take less calculated risks 20 years ago. And I think there’s some age that comes in wisdom, knowing your limits. And also for a lot of, especially women, I’m not sure about males, but your amygdala grows as you get older and that’s the part of your brain that senses and interprets and processes fear. And so I think there’s too, it’s twice as big after someone gives birth, protect the baby, everything is a threat. It’s really interesting. But I think for most folks, as we get older, we have a higher level of self-awareness. And I think our physical abilities, I’ve noticed just with age there is more calculated risk and attention to detail. I am a little bit less, I use the word aggro and I still feel strong, but my approaches feel different than I did 20 years ago for sure. 

Speaker 4 (00:29:30):

Do you think that leans more heavily female or male or do you think that’s across the board with females and males? 

Speaker 5 (00:29:36):

I think it’s both genders. I think it’s everybody. What do you think Sarah? 

Speaker 3 (00:29:44):

I mean it feels to me like there’s some accuracy there too in recognizing vulnerability and that our physical abilities change as we age too. So there’s some of that that’s just like, well if I were to fall right now, it might impact my body in a really different way than it did when I was 20. So I have to have a little bit of a different calculus with risk as I’m aging. And so I dunno, some of that might be brain related and some of it might be some accurate read on what our capacities actually are and still figuring out ways to be out there. Even as I’m not on my 

Speaker 5 (00:30:23):

Mom’s healthcare anymore. When we were young, we were on our parents’ healthcare. Now I have to pay for it and it will take longer to heal and I’ve been injured. I know how much that sucks. 

Speaker 4 (00:30:39):

Well, let’s move on to actually, do you think there are other male female dynamics that we haven’t talked about? Sarah, have you noticed male female dynamics in your business? Well actually how long have you had your business for? 

Speaker 3 (00:30:53):

It’s like 12 years old I think. 

Speaker 4 (00:30:56):

Oh wow. Okay. So you have had time to see changes. What are some of the dynamics and have you seen changes in the past 12 years? 

Speaker 3 (00:31:04):

That’s not really something I’ve been tracking. It’s really interesting. I noticed, I mean there’s been huge amount of changes in who’s willing to do online training. Of course it blew up really big during COVID and then now less and less people are looking, seeking out ways to train that particular way to train. But yeah, gender dynamics, I mean I certainly track that inside of my personal relationship. I mean, so Luke Mel is my husband and he’s definitely an experienced pack crafter and super into the safety side of things. And also a really big whitewater guy. I’m not so much into the whitewater side of things. I do a lot of pack crafting on our long remote trips, but it tends to be more like class two or maybe three minus stuffs that we can do remotely without a ton of risk, which is where I like it to be. 

Speaker 3 (00:32:01):

And so I mean those dynamics between us have changed quite a lot over the years because I think when we first started dating and I came in being pretty fairly new to the water scene and he was already a really experienced voter. And so we kind of initially set up this dynamic inside of our relationship of him being the one with lots of expertise and me being the one who was learning alongside. And then for me it was kind of easy to extrapolate from that water dynamic into other aspects like other parts of our outdoor time. And I at one point realized that I was defaulting to following his lead in the parts of our trips that were hiking and the parts that were skiing and that it was kind of a easy to fall into that he’s got all the experience and so I’m just follow his lead. But then sometimes we’d get into situations where I’m like, how did we end up in this situation? I am pretty sure this is not ideal. Or I am thinking about a hiking in the Arctic trip where we ended up on this really steep tallis descent where all the rocks were loose. And I was like, why are we going this way? 

Speaker 3 (00:33:21):

And realized that I had fallen into the default of following this line that he had drawn without looking around and being like, there’s a way better route right over here. We should definitely take this instead and had to catch. We had to renegotiate the way we were doing that because there’s that default of following his lead because he has experience in some areas, but we’re actually really well matched in the hiking area and maybe I even have more experience in that realm. And so I had to figure out how to step back into more of a decision-making role there and get in practice of using my own voice rather than just stepping back into the following role. 

Speaker 4 (00:34:09):

So you made a conscious effort to do that. I’m curious what that looked like, how long it took and what you did specifically to take on more of a role. 

Speaker 3 (00:34:19):

Yeah. Well that particular descent was for sure a game changer because I started out on that feeling like I was struggling on this descent and I didn’t know and I felt a lot of shame about it. I was going slower than him and why are we going here? And then after some time it took some time to get down this crappy tallus slope. I came around to realizing that he’s going faster through this, but maybe my slow steady pace was actually a bit safer because I was actually able to test these rocks that were moving and big enough that we just certainly didn’t want to get trapped in between them. And so it kind of came around to being like, there’s some wisdom in the way that I do this and I need to kind of come back into trusting that. And then also recognizing that default of following versus there was a decision point up above that dissent where I could have caught that and voiced it earlier. So now when we do route planning, we do a lot more of that together. That’s been something we’ve intentionally make time to do before a trip to look over where we’re going together. And then we are just way more practice these days at when we’re at a place where there’s different things you could do, different ways you could go to come together and be like, this is what I see, this is what I see. And come to a group consensus on that rather than a default of following one person’s way. 

Speaker 4 (00:36:04):

I love that. I feel like that’s super valuable for women and women and men and men, not just between men and women because always having those always to have everybody be empowered with the knowledge I think makes your whole group stronger really and makes it, I mean that doesn’t always make the decisions better, but if everybody can contribute and say, I’m comfortable with this, I’m not comfortable with this or the level of comfort, that sort of thing, I feel like it’s beneficial for all groups of people. Jewel, you look like you want to say something, 

Speaker 5 (00:36:33):

Tell ’em like wait for it. No, and I’m actually working on interrupting. I am an interrupter and so I get so excited and I’m so excited to share, but I’m like, wait for it. Wait for it. Thanks for noticing. Yeah, tell me no. So I think too, being an educator and being a guide, even on personal trips, my friends call me alpha jewel behind my back. It’s just like I’m not bossy, I just feel like I have better ideas. No, that’s not true. I love hearing other people’s ideas and integrating everyone’s ideas into a trip plan. But I’ve noticed sometimes with friends they’re like, oh, jewel figured out the route, or Oh, we’ll just take Juul’s line or Oh, jewel figured it out. And I’m like, no guys, we are a team and I would like everyone to know what I know. Or also because messed up routes before and I’ve accidentally taken a two day bush whack that there was a better route and some help in figuring out would’ve been awesome. 

Speaker 5 (00:37:32):

But even backcountry skiing, I got this idea from a friend, like, okay, I nerd it out and I know I dug a few pits yesterday and I’ve been following the snow report, but reading the Abbey report before we go skiing to everyone in the car, like, hey, giving them the information that I have or right now in New Zealand I’m paddling a lot of new runs with folks that have also not been on them. And so sharing whether it’s on the shuttle or as we’re walking in, this is all the information I have, this is when I think we’re going to make decisions, what do you think? And I’m really big into how do you feel about that? Where lots of times I’ve been at the top of a rapid and I am going to run it, but I just want everyone to know I’m so scared. I am not very confident right now. I think I can do it, but I feel a lot of fear. And so I think that the communication with the pre-trip planning and while you’re in doing the trip, but also your space while you’re doing the objective, your emotional is really great in being transparent throughout. 

Speaker 4 (00:38:39):

And I do feel like, and I don’t know, maybe you all can reflect on this a little bit, but I do feel like at least what I’ve noticed just in my interactions with my male and female clients is that women tend to not want to step up always. I mean, the women who come on our courses, they do want to learn, but a lot of times it’s more challenging for them to step up and own their voice. I think maybe to me that seems to be even now, I mean back when I started rock climbing, absolutely a hundred percent and it is changing, but I do still feel like that’s challenging for women. Or we have a whole woman female board for my Armida adventure fund and there were women who were apologizing when we met them and sort of initiated our first sixth person board and oh, I’m talking too much. And we’re all like, no, you’re not talking too much. We want to hear what you have to say. We’re here to get to know each other so you’re not talking too much. Right. So anyway, do you guys want to reflect on that? 

Speaker 3 (00:39:36):

Yeah, I do. I mean, for me, I look at all this stuff from a nervous system lens so much, and there are these different defaults inside of the nervous system and one of the primary ones that overindexes for women is the fawn response. And for a long time fight and flight and freeze were the ones we knew about, and Fawn wasn’t even one that was researched for so long because they were only researching on men. And this whole major response inside of the nervous system wasn’t even something we were aware of until more recently when we started to see it as one that primarily happens inside of a female nervous system. And that generally that’s the response to prioritize social connection over individual needs and to access safety through group cohesiveness and to go towards something that’s off and help the other person calm down through using your own nervous system to help them feel better. 

Speaker 3 (00:40:39):

So I mean, there’s just a lot of, maybe it has to do with estrogen and child rearing and there’s a lot of theories as to why that is so heavy inside of the female nervous system, but it absolutely is something that we see stronger for women, and that is a physiological response that makes saying that you have a different opinion more challenging because it has that quality of threatening the social cohesiveness. So that’s a big part of my work I think of too, is figuring out how to help helping people feel safe enough inside their own bodies that they can respond differently. And instead of being stuck in a default safety response, which might mean I can’t say what I think because I need to feel safe in a group without saying things like figuring out ways to help us break through that freezing us inside of the system and actually get your voice out into the conversation. That all, to me, that has a lot to do with the way we access safety and the sense of can we feel safe enough physically in our bodies to do something that can be a little bit scary sometimes by saying something that may or may not be what everyone else agrees with. Maybe 

Speaker 5 (00:42:13):

That is so cool. I’ve never heard that before, but it makes so much sense. So wow. 

Speaker 4 (00:42:19):

And maybe that’s why so many women seek out so much education and training because then they can be really grounded in the knowledge, not just their experience but the knowledge and then their experience based on that knowledge and then more knowledge. It’s like a positive cycle. I do feel more comfortable speaking out now in pack grafting that I’ve learned so much over the past eight years. That’s so interesting. Wow. 

Speaker 3 (00:42:45):

Yeah, totally. It’s easier to speak when feel like you have confidence in what you’re saying. It’s not just a personal opinion. It’s something I learned somewhere though more and more it’d be great if we could trust our opinions enough too. 

Speaker 5 (00:43:01):

There’s this yoga saying I love it a lot, but it’s get out of the head and into the heart a lot of this emotion or this intuition or this feeling, there’s a lot of wisdom there. And our intellect can rationalize and overanalyze and in the heart, my heart’s not insecure, but my thoughts can be insecure. And so that can override this thing I feel like deep down to be true. So some of that yoga lineage I think really resonates with me. But I’m wondering this Fawn concept, fight flight or fawn, I’ve never heard of that before and I’m kind like just so many light bulbs went off’s. So cool. And I wonder, my friends always joke, they’re like, jewel, when are you going to start teaching men’s courses? And I’m like, well, when we find a male instructor that’s stoked about them, but there doesn’t seem to be the need. I bet there is a need, but they don’t seem, you don’t see a lot of male only courses or learning environments as we see such a how popular the women’s ones are, but that fight flight or fawn. And I think that nervous system difference that really kind of makes, I don’t know, just a lot of light bulbs went off, why there might be more women-centered learning environments versus male-centered learning environments in the outdoor industry. 

Speaker 3 (00:44:28):

Generally the outdoor industry is a male-centered space. We don’t need specific classes necessarily for that. But I think one of the benefits of a women centered space is that it can help that fawn response feel less intense and we can practice voicing different needs and in an environment that feels like a little bit safer, we have that gender dynamic is less out there. And I also want to name here that these same similar dynamics here play out racially too. So we’re three white women here talking about what it means to be engaging with these dynamics inside of gender. But absolutely people of color also not super represented in these spaces and also have that default of a fawn response when engaging with up power whiteness inside of these spaces. So that’s like, that’s why it’s these women centered spaces or bipoc centered spaces can be really helpful for helping free us from some of those patternings that we develop for good reason for engaging with more dominant groups. 

Speaker 5 (00:45:43):

With your work doing somatic stuff, do you know if that fawn, does it change as we age too within nervous systems? 

Speaker 3 (00:45:52):

Well, there is a shift in it with menopause because of the way we lose estrogen. And estrogen is one of those hormones that promotes social us to prioritize our social connections. And so as you lose estrogen, there’s less emphasis. That’s one of the things that can feel really freeing for women in that transition is now I actually don’t care so much what other people think, so I just get to say what I want. And there’s some really nice things about that. 

Speaker 4 (00:46:30):

That’s so interesting though, because society so badly and so desperately tries to invisible make women after 50 invisible. So it’s really interesting because, I mean, I don’t feel invisible personally, but I know one of my really good friends was fired from being an athlete basically a few months before she turned 50, she was on the North Face team and she was fired and they said it was because they wanted to bring more people of color onto the team, but they still have 17 or 18 older white males on the team and only three women. So it’s like trying to erase, maybe women come into their power. I mean, I like them to come into their power earlier and my goal would be to empower women at all ages, but maybe it’s easier to come into your power when you’re in your fifties and sixties or your forties even. 

Speaker 4 (00:47:22):

So that’s so cool. But yeah, thanks for sharing. This is really an interesting conversation. I had no idea what direction it would go. Can we go back real quick to the, I just want to touch on the Bipoc angle just briefly because I have a nonprofit now, the Arm Juta Adventure Fund, and we provide pack grafting scholarships to women of color and queer folk. And I think that in a year it would be cool to have a conversation because all the women except for one on the board have now tried a pack crafting course through Four Corners Guides, and they’re hopefully all going to take more courses this next year. Well actually one hasn’t, but she will be taking a course this next year. And maybe it would be cool to have another conversation in a year and bring a couple of them on board and have you gals back just because I don’t know how to talk, speak to that since I’m white, but I would like to plant that seed. 

Speaker 3 (00:48:20):

Yeah, that’d be sweet. So cool that that’s happening. And yeah, I’d love to hear from them 

Speaker 4 (00:48:29):

Make the plug so that we can keep bringing a little bit more diversity into Pack Crafting. And Jewel, I’ve seen though that you have, it seems like you have quite a diverse group of people. I’ve noticed women of color and queer women and not in, oh God, non-gendered, what’s the word? Shit, I just forgot the word. 

Speaker 5 (00:48:49):

Gender 

Speaker 4 (00:48:50):

Binary. Thank you folks on some of your courses. Actually, can we talk a little bit specifically about your pack crafting courses and gender dynamics within the Pack crafting courses and maybe what you’ve seen with the non-binary and the women’s courses and how people interact in courses like mixed courses and then separate and just focused courses on women or non-binary folks? 

Speaker 5 (00:49:14):

Inherently, I’ve found in all the courses, the PAC Wrap courses, so again, it’s less of a guiding operation. We do do some guided tours, but for folks that have their own gear and they’re aspiring to become their own guide and navigate Wild and Remote rivers in Alaska, but we have courses geared towards the Never, ever, we start off on a lake and we go to class one. We’ve got, of course we call Whitewater Essentials, getting folks what they need to know to, sometimes I say safe is a fake word. All these sports are dangerous, but as safely as possible, ride grade two rivers and have the skillset to build from there. And then we do some intermediate and advanced skills coaching where folks are getting more aggressive in their whitewater and they’ve had a lot of safety training, they have proficient self rescue, but they’re really trying to elevate their technical skills. 

Speaker 5 (00:50:06):

And then we also do swift water rescue. So there’s a lot of diverse stuff. We do a lot of custom, I do half of our work’s not on the website, it’s just custom requests for groups. And so all across the board, whatever anyone’s learning, wherever they’re from, whatever their age is, I’ve found though to be there almost this feeling like, oh, we’re a family for the next three days. We’re doing this together where there’s this common goal. And I think too, it’s easy to feel like that when it’s like, okay, I’m mom, or I like what Luke says, I’m Mother Duck. So it’s like we have identified mom and here’s the assistant that is dad. And then there’s a lot of faith and trust, and then it’s like the siblings all supporting each other. And so I feel like there’s these little micro families, whatever the courses are. 

Speaker 5 (00:50:53):

So they’re really cool. And I see this especially in the women’s courses, but in all the courses they kind of turn into friend farms, which is so cool. Most of their pack rafting is going to be without me, but creating space so folks can find each other. And I continue living the dream and getting on the water a big reason. So I love teaching all the courses, but I’ve got a special spot in my heart for women’s courses, and I mentioned this on an earlier podcast with Lizzie. There’s the part of our brain that processes experience through speech where whether it’s hearing it and then repeating it, the actual talking it out, it can be up to twice as big in a female versus a male. Where I find in the courses, especially when they’re all female or all women, folks are more inclined to voice their fear and they want to hear about the technique and explain it back to you. 

Speaker 5 (00:51:54):

And that seems to be such a strong part of the learning process where in co-ed courses, I see that a little bit less, it’s still alive, but a little bit less, but there’s this cohesion and celebratory nature that I can’t put words into in these women’s courses. I always joke, I’m like, these are kind bachelorette parties, they’re just so fun. And so I dunno. Those are some of the biggest things I can say and attest to it. And I think too, there are so many dynamics in Alaska where similar, what Sarah was sharing about her experience recreating and exploring outside with Luke is it’s so easy to go into these gender roles. And I think the women’s courses, it’s an opportunity for ’em to break free of their gender roles, whatever their gender roles are or redefine them. And a lot of the women have partners, a lot of the women don’t have partners, but I think whether their partner does the sport or not, they’re looking for friends and for people to float with. 

Speaker 4 (00:53:09):

As you were talking, I wonder if Alaska Pack Crafting School being a woman owned business, I wonder if you are part of the reason that these groups feel like family. I mean, you have to be part of the reason that these groups feel like family because you establish, and then all the people that train with you, they learn from you. And so you sort of established, I wonder if the paradigm of your teaching is different from say, a male owned business that mostly has male guides or male, I just don’t know. But it seems like just the way you talk about, well, these are families, they’re like many families that come together that seems stereotypically pretty female, do you know? Yeah, 

Speaker 5 (00:53:52):

Yeah, totally. 

Speaker 4 (00:53:55):

But maybe it wasn’t a conscious thing, but it sounds like Sarah, you were really more conscious in making yours a women centered space. So I feel like with Four Corners Guides, maybe there’s a mix of it because I have Doom who does most of the trips, but then I do all the communications with people and I try to bring people to the ranch and we establish these long-term relationships with people, and it also feels very much like a family. And the groups that get together also feel very much like a lot of them Pack Craft have for years together now and go on bigger trips together. And so I guess that’s a topic for a different podcast, but it would be interesting to do some studies on how women led businesses in the outdoor industry differ from male led businesses. 

Speaker 3 (00:54:43):

I think it would be super interesting and I mean, I just feel like as Alaskan here, having watched Jewel take the lead with the Alaska Pack Craft school, I think it really has shaped the Alaska Pack crafting scene here and helped make it feel more or just normal that women are out there doing this thing. Like dual is one of the leaders here locally, and it’s so obvious that there’s no question anymore about if women do this or not. It’s just like, well, yeah, there’s dual. It’s really cool. Ripple, I’d 

Speaker 5 (00:55:14):

Say for saying that I didn’t feel that way 20 years ago. 

Speaker 3 (00:55:18):

Yeah, so a big shift then from 20 years ago to now. 

Speaker 4 (00:55:23):

Well, there’s also, I mean the sport, I wouldn’t say it’s woman centric, but with Sherry Tini being the grandmother and the designer of the modern day pack craft mean. Yeah, sure. Other companies have made good pack wrap, but she is the definitive leader in the industry and she is the only woman who has so altered a sports so drastically in the outdoor adventure scene. I mean, I can’t think of anybody else. It’s all men. So Sherry’s like a pioneer in a role model for all of us. She was a good voter. 

Speaker 5 (00:55:56):

Oh, that’s so cool. 

Speaker 4 (00:55:57):

So I do want to ask a question. I’m curious. So I’ve had this question come up numerous times from clients like a male and a female partner. Generally the male, they want to do a course together. Maybe they should do one separately. They don’t know. Generally the male has more experience, he’s been out more times. Maybe he doesn’t have more education, but he’s just been out more and is more gung ho. This is what I typically see. I don’t generally see every once a while there’s a woman with more experience, but generally it’s the male. So should they take a course together? Should they take a course apart? 

Speaker 5 (00:56:29):

I encourage them to train together or take course together. But honestly, when I get couples, I put ’em in separate groups seriously. And until they’ve both gotten some proficiency in the skills on day three, I might put them because we switch up groups every day, but I am intentionally kind of separating them. So no one’s kind of, I think, overriding the other or two. It’s going to take away from any partner’s experience if they’re worried about the other one. And yeah, that’s great. That’s a great trait. And a trip partner, I love my partner Pete, and I’m worried about him. He’s worried about me. We actually came into pack rafting and whitewater independently, and so we didn’t learn together. And so I think there’s a lot of beauty in, we do a lot of breakout subgroups, but separating partnerships for that one or two days and then on the last day, bringing it back together so they can practice and train with each other. 

Speaker 4 (00:57:26):

Benefits to practicing together be, yeah. 

Speaker 5 (00:57:28):

Yeah. And I’m a big, whoever you go boating with, when you take a Swiftwater rescue or a skills course with them and train with each other, that’s so valuable. 

Speaker 4 (00:57:39):

What do you think, Sarah? 

Speaker 3 (00:57:41):

I mean, I think that’s a great answer. I’m all on board with what Jewel said, and then it probably wouldn’t hurt if the person with less experience wanted to do some gender specific classes. That can be really confidence inspiring too. So there’s the benefit to training with your partner, who you’ll be with. And then if you’re feeling kind of behind in the learning curve, then getting some space where you can get some practice with being a little bit more with your peers and the practice using your voice and doing it in an environment that’s maybe a little bit easier to do that in. That’s where those gender specific courses could support that co-ed learning space. 

Speaker 4 (00:58:27):

Thank you. I have one more question. I just want you guys to reflect on something that happened to me. I still haven’t quite figured out what to think of it, and then I’ll ask one final question after that. But I had this experience, so I taught my first level three women’s course. I did it for free, I did it for a couple of friends and a couple were just acquaintances, and I’m just trying to get my level four pack craft instructor certification. So I wanted to get some practice teaching a higher level stuff. So the day was amazing. We had such a good time, but at the end of the day, we finally did surfing. Sometimes I’m really good at it, sometimes I suck. I’m just not very consistent with surfing and teaching surfing. It was like, for me, the scariest part of the whole day. 

Speaker 4 (00:59:08):

I knew I was going to do it, but I was just like, oh. And of course we’re doing surfing and I’m teaching the ladies and this friend of a friend comes paddling down and he’s a really good kayaker. And he sees me and I’m like, yeah, I’m teaching a course. And he’s like, oh, cool. But he of wasn’t really paying attention to me. And then he starts to tell one of my, I had told my client something specific to do when she was entering the Rapid or entering the wave, and he started to instruct her. And it was really weird feeling. I was already tired. I was already nervous about teaching surfing. And then he started to teach her and I just talked over me and I was just like, it was so deflating. And then I went and surfed. And then of course I swam and then I was like, okay, I’m done. And it was the end of our course anyway, but I felt like the course ended. I was really disappointed with how the course ended. I’m sure that they’re stoked and I should ask them, but they end. I literally felt really deflated and what do you do in that situation? I mean, he was just being a nice guy, but it was a bit of mansplaining and it was irritating. And yeah, I just wanted to you gals to reflect on that. And he thoughts, I mean, I’m not going to say anything. 

Speaker 5 (01:00:20):

I think that’s in play parks where folks give the most solicited or unsolicited advice regardless of gender is somebody at a surf wave. And seriously is everyone saying on the Eddie, I want to make this sticker that just says not how I’d do it. Kind of araf guy saying, I don’t want to do it. I wonder if that has to do with anything gender related at all. Right? Or if that guy is just like, oh, I have a tool to help and I’m eager to share. That’s what it feels like. It sounds like terrible timing for you, the insecurity around that topic and at the end of the day, and then I guess I’m just going to swim right after right now too. I’ve been in that same space and I feel like I know what you’re talking about and it’s funny, it’s like addressing stuff like that too without making a big deal, right? Like is this going to kill the vibe? Is this person going to get defensive? This sounds kind of passive. I think I would’ve let it ride out and then if the guy was being annoying and wouldn’t stop, I think I would’ve brought something up or just gone to different Eddie and then came back, which sounds kind of like escaping. But yeah, that’s a tricky one to navigate. It’s tricky. 

Speaker 6 (01:01:39):

Gosh, 

Speaker 3 (01:01:40):

I feel like I’m sorry it happened to you honestly, Lizzie, that sounds like really deflating and when you’re trying to build up your confidence as an instructor, it’s the worst, not the worst. There’s worst, but definitely a less than ideal situation and whether or not he was conscious of those gender dynamics. I mean some of the way that patriarchy works is by creating blind spots for men to, they’re just not having to track gender as much as we are. So it’s possible that that was something his body was reacting to as far as I know what to do here. And coming at it from a gender perspective, even without being consciously aware of that, and even good guys do that and similar to as white people, even best intentions are going to step in it. Sometimes we have these blind spots, so I don’t know. 

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):

I think you’re saying how to engage with it without causing a thing. I mean maybe it’s okay to sometimes cause a thing and let the guy feel a little uncomfortable. They did kind of step in it and their mansplaining even if they didn’t mean to. And even if it’s coming in with well and good intentions, the nervous system access point there we have, we’re having to access a little bit of healthy aggression would be a term for that. A little bit of boundary setting energy, which can be a tricky energy to access, especially if you have that kind of fawn default. But it’s really useful inside of outdoor rec in general. We do kind of need that protector energy inside of us both for going through hard, rapid and also for engaging interpersonally. I mean, I wonder what, I have that kind of freeze response too, and it’d be hard for me to do it in the moment, but I feel like I’m working toward wanting to be able to be like, Hey dude, we’re in class here and I’m the teacher. This is a women’s space. Have a good day. Bye. Just getting any sort of words out or in those situations can feel really good. I wonder what that sometimes when I experience those deflating moments, it’s because I didn’t say something that I wanted to say. And so I’m in that practice now of saying something, even if it’s messy and even if it creates a little kerfuffle and doing that just as a personal practice of I got to practice getting my voice into these moments. 

Speaker 4 (01:04:32):

Yeah, no, I like that and I appreciate it. I really feel like I had this container and we were all in this container and then right at the end, instead of finishing as a container, it sort of went like that and that was what was so disappointing and deflating for me. So yeah, I do feel like moving forward I could probably just say, Hey, I’m teaching right now and it’s interrupting by by mansplaining. So just if you don’t mind, just back off maybe I feel like that would’ve been, I would’ve felt better had I said that I feel like I would’ve maintained the container with the ladies. So thank you. Thank you both for, 

Speaker 3 (01:05:12):

I want to say too that there really is work to do on both sides here because you taking the work on of getting yourself to say something in those situations, that’s an emotional labor effort toward figuring out how to overcome that fond response or in that moment. But if there are men listening who are conscious of these situations and there’s for sure work to be done on that side of things too, and honestly that’s where the majority of the work ideally would land because if men can become conscious of the gender dynamics that they’re stepping into, that’ll really help ease the way these experiences land. And he might’ve missed that one, but maybe if he’s listening now, we’ll be more conscious next time of who am I stepping into and maybe having some awareness that women need an extra kind of bubble of space to be leaders and to work together in these spaces. And it’s like a good time to practice asking if you want my advice versus just offering it without getting consent first. 

Speaker 4 (01:06:26):

Yeah, I love that. I hope men listen to this podcast too. 

Speaker 6 (01:06:31):

Yeah, I do too. 

Speaker 4 (01:06:32):

Are there any final questions or anything I didn’t ask either of you that you feel is important to share about this subject? I feel like we could talk for another hour easily, but it’s been an hour and 20 minutes, so I don’t want to keep you too long or 10 minutes. Anything that I’m not asking you that you want to share with me? 

Speaker 6 (01:06:51):

This is great, I think I feel like we covered a lot. I am sure, like you said, we could keep going, but it feels pretty complete for now. 

Speaker 5 (01:06:59):

Yeah, whether you’re male or female or whoever. If you desire to go play outside, right, go do it. One of my mantras in that is keep it fun and it’s not always about getting better, but it’s about playing outside and having a great time. And so setting yourself up, whether it’s taking a course or finding resources or rallying a crew, it’s just exciting to see more women, not just women, but more of everybody playing outside. 

Speaker 4 (01:07:31):

And Sarah, where can we find you online? And I will put your website and all that stuff in the show notes. 

Speaker 3 (01:07:38):

Yeah. Mind and mountain.co is my business site and I’m on Instagram, which is my name, 

Speaker 6 (01:07:44):

Sarah m his stand. Feel free to reach out there and say hi. If you listened here and had something that you wanted to talk about, I’d love to have conversations. 

Speaker 4 (01:07:54):

And Jewel, where can people find you online? 

Speaker 5 (01:07:58):

Online, it’s Alaska pack raft.com and the social medias. I’m Alaska Pack Raft and I’m also on a leadership team for the Pack Raft film Fest, so I’d love it if there was some women’s film or Ladies on the Water. We didn’t have a submission like that last year, but so yeah, RAF Film Fest in Alaska. Pac. Raf pretty friendly on the socials, so yeah, reach out. 

Speaker 4 (01:08:25):

Cool. Thank you so much, ladies. That was such an interesting conversation. I learned a lot and I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me, jewel from New Zealand and Sarah from Alaska, and I hope you ladies have a wonderful day. Yeah, echo. Thanks for having us. All right. Hi 

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):

La. Fire by the river. Sleep on the ground. Ramble, ramble, ramble. Let’s see, only way back home. See the crows coming. Tell your story to the smoke. What can’t hold itself up on the land. I say let it 

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):

Go. Well, that is a wrap, sorry for the lack of podcasts. The last few months I’ve been really busy. I rejoined the American Pack Grafting Association Board as the vice president and we are in the very beginning of our end of the year giving campaign. I want to give a big shout out to the a PA as the most important organization advocating for Pack Grafters. If you haven’t joined yet, you can join all this month for just $10 and also be entered in to win a bunch of cool prizes through four Corners Guides and Buddy Boy Adventure Waste Kits. You can find the link to register in the bios of both Buddy Boy and Four Corners Guides on our Instagram pages and also in the show notes. And definitely head on over to the American Pack Crafting Association website right now. I know immediacy, just trying to encourage you to give some cash and buy some raffle tickets for the huge end of the year giveaway that they’re doing. 

Speaker 2 (01:10:06):

The a PA is giving away one of our courses, a three day pack RAF day course of your choosing, and there are two alpaca rafts in the lineup, including their brand new hasn’t been launched yet. Chinook Flatwater boat. So exciting. There’s a wrangle Mountain Air backcountry flight, a go wild backcountry, fly in and float adventure. Wow. An NRS dry suit and a pack graft and immersion research dry suit, a bad Larry Socker backpack, a big wild superior wilderness designs pack, and a Hyperlight mid tent and a whole bunch of other cool things. So you can also find the link to that giveaway in the show notes. Yeah, so I hope you enjoyed this latest episode. I will try to get the next two shorts up in the next month. And yeah, thanks so much for listening and for being a fan of the Pack Rafting Life 

Speaker 4 (01:10:56):

Podcast. If you want to download this podcast, we are finally on Apple as well as Spotify, and you can even find us in the NPR one app. There are also transcriptions of most of the episodes and show notes, links and other information on our blog@fourcornersguides.com. If you have any questions, comments, or ideas for who you want us to talk with, feel free to reach out to me anytime at the pack grafting life@gmail.com. All right, have a wonderful fall full of paddling and adventures and we’ll talk to you soon. Bye. 

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):

There’s no such thing as time. There’s just wind and ice. Great Grandma. She always said the extra tracks like a fox and go through this life like water round or rock a seal. How got nephews, sister, chest, nut in the mud. Let’s go quiet and out of the woods, give the river some room to flood. We all live downstream. We all live down.