🎧Episode #13: Happy Pride Month! Let’s Talk Queer Packrafters, Packrafting & LGBTQ+ Outdoors

00:00:00.017 –> 00:00:04.117

But packrafting, like, why is it a unique way to get queer folks into the outdoors?

00:00:04.517 –> 00:00:07.737

I want to start just kind of from a general perspective. I think packrafting,

00:00:07.917 –> 00:00:12.877

for me, is the most, like, meditative, engaging experience.

00:00:13.077 –> 00:00:18.937

But you have to think, like, 10 steps ahead. And you don’t have time to be caught

00:00:18.937 –> 00:00:20.797

up in other stuff that’s going on in your life.

00:00:20.957 –> 00:00:25.077

And it’s just, you have to be entirely present and paying attention to what’s

00:00:25.077 –> 00:00:26.437

next and what’s in front of you.

00:00:26.437 –> 00:00:29.777

You’re having to be at the whim of the river and

00:00:29.777 –> 00:00:32.457

figure out how to navigate alongside the whim of the

00:00:32.457 –> 00:00:35.857

river and you can’t just like stop moving down

00:00:35.857 –> 00:00:38.637

without actively doing something to

00:00:38.637 –> 00:00:43.277

help yourself stop moving down the river and engaging with it in that way and

00:00:43.277 –> 00:00:48.217

I think that just helps everybody in a lot of different aspects of their lives

00:00:48.217 –> 00:00:54.057

and helps kind of restructure the way that you face or that people face day-to-day

00:00:54.057 –> 00:00:56.797

life and perceiving it all kind of like that.

00:00:57.117 –> 00:01:01.497

Like it’s the flow of the river and we’ve got to navigate with what we’re going

00:01:01.497 –> 00:01:04.497

through and react to things as they come up.

00:01:05.200 –> 00:01:32.240

Music.

00:01:33.050 –> 00:01:38.890

Hello and welcome to The Packrafting Life, aka A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting.

00:01:39.130 –> 00:01:44.130

My name is Lizzie Scully and I’m your host. I own and operate Four Corners Guides

00:01:44.130 –> 00:01:48.930

and Instructional Guide Service with my husband, Steve Fassbinder, aka Doom.

00:01:49.230 –> 00:01:54.390

We live at our base camp, Skullbinder Ranch, a 35-acre desert wonderland that

00:01:54.390 –> 00:01:58.230

borders Mesa Verde National Park and the Ute Mountain Ute Tribal Park.

00:01:58.430 –> 00:02:03.450

Doom and I also authored The Bikeraft Guide, a history of wild adventure stories

00:02:03.450 –> 00:02:07.010

about and how-to guide for aspiring bike rafters.

00:02:07.490 –> 00:02:12.570

I started this podcast late in 2023 as a way to share stories and information

00:02:12.570 –> 00:02:16.470

and to offer guidance to folks getting into packrafting, bikerafting,

00:02:16.670 –> 00:02:21.590

skirafting, or any of the other activities that include these funny little inflatable boats.

00:02:21.770 –> 00:02:26.770

I am super stoked this awesome Pride Month to be talking with Justin Yoder and

00:02:26.770 –> 00:02:31.350

Justin Bickley about being queer in the packrafting and greater outdoor community.

00:02:31.690 –> 00:02:36.310

In this episode, number 13, we discuss the different ways the Justins are involved

00:02:36.310 –> 00:02:40.310

in building LGBTQ plus plus community in the outdoors,

00:02:40.570 –> 00:02:44.650

some packrafting adventures they are planning or have been on with other queer

00:02:44.650 –> 00:02:47.750

folk, and how that intersects with a new non-profit,

00:02:48.270 –> 00:02:52.330

the Armida Horta Adventure Fund that Tammy Graham and I started in 2024.

00:02:53.310 –> 00:02:56.930

Armida’s fund focuses on getting more queer folk and women of color into the

00:02:56.930 –> 00:03:00.710

outdoors on packrafts and bicycles, which is similar to the mission of LGBTQ

00:03:00.710 –> 00:03:05.330

Plus Outdoors, which Justin Yoder runs, and for which Justin Bickley is an ambassador.

00:03:05.930 –> 00:03:09.870

Our Meetas Fund and LGBTQ Outdoors are teaming up this year to provide scholarships

00:03:09.870 –> 00:03:16.290

to two participants of the Alaska Packraft School’s July LGBTQ Plus Backcountry Packrafting Course.

00:03:16.570 –> 00:03:20.350

As well, our Meetas Fund is paying for a second backcountry adventure through

00:03:20.350 –> 00:03:24.310

Four Corners Guides, the company that I run with Steve Fassbinder,

00:03:24.310 –> 00:03:27.930

and this course is for queer folk and it’s being held in Utah.

00:03:28.890 –> 00:03:33.010

Please check out the show notes for details on how to apply. And finally,

00:03:33.290 –> 00:03:37.650

in light of the Trump administration and General Maga Wright’s vicious and unjustified

00:03:37.650 –> 00:03:41.190

attacks on the queer community, especially transgendered folks,

00:03:41.350 –> 00:03:46.190

we wanted to publish a pod letting all the queer folk out there know that we’ve got your back.

00:03:46.410 –> 00:03:50.210

I hope you enjoy this show. I sure enjoyed recording it.

00:03:51.550 –> 00:03:55.570

Yeah, would you guys please introduce yourselves? Yeah, this is Justin Yoder.

00:03:55.810 –> 00:03:56.950

I’ll go ahead and jump in.

00:03:57.410 –> 00:04:01.050

Yeah, I’m the founder and executive director for LGBTQ Outdoors,

00:04:01.290 –> 00:04:07.070

currently living in Fort Worth, Texas, and been here for way too long.

00:04:09.130 –> 00:04:12.310

Desperately wanting to get to the mountains and live where there’s a little

00:04:12.310 –> 00:04:14.370

bit more outdoorsy stuff.

00:04:14.370 –> 00:04:21.510

Started LGBTQ Outdoors in 2019 just as a way to kind of provide a safe space

00:04:21.510 –> 00:04:26.010

for the queer community to be able to find connection in the outdoors,

00:04:26.090 –> 00:04:29.830

as well as to break down the stereotype that queer people don’t like the outdoors.

00:04:30.070 –> 00:04:35.150

There’s a big stereotype that the LGBTQI community is, you know,

00:04:35.270 –> 00:04:39.650

more about the bars and the clubs and fashion and shopping and all this.

00:04:39.790 –> 00:04:42.830

But I’m like, that goes with any any demographic

00:04:42.830 –> 00:04:45.810

you know and so there’s a big demographic of us

00:04:45.810 –> 00:04:49.150

too that just love getting outside love hiking

00:04:49.150 –> 00:04:55.470

camping all of that and so that’s that’s what i do and we have chapters all

00:04:55.470 –> 00:05:01.690

across the u.s including in alaska um and we got connected with you and also

00:05:01.690 –> 00:05:05.710

the alaska pack rafting school by doing our adventure trips well justin uh bickley

00:05:05.710 –> 00:05:07.690

actually came on as one of our ambassadors first,

00:05:08.470 –> 00:05:09.730

it kind of got us all connected.

00:05:09.910 –> 00:05:15.270

And so last year, we did our first adventure trip to Alaska and did a week-long

00:05:15.270 –> 00:05:16.510

pack rafting trip up there.

00:05:16.590 –> 00:05:19.590

And it was amazing. And I decided we needed to do this every year now.

00:05:19.690 –> 00:05:21.850

So we’re going back up there again this summer.

00:05:22.750 –> 00:05:28.010

Swinged. Nice. Well, that’s a good segue to Justin Bickley. Yeah, I’m Justin Bickley.

00:05:28.790 –> 00:05:34.750

I came up to Alaska or came back up to Alaska three, a little over three years ago.

00:05:35.010 –> 00:05:38.250

I grew up here and finally made my way back. I was an elementary school teacher

00:05:38.250 –> 00:05:41.310

for a while. I got my master’s in elementary ed.

00:05:42.143 –> 00:05:48.923

That decided to shift directions. I took an Alaska PacGraph school course with Jewel Harley.

00:05:49.923 –> 00:05:51.423

And during that course, I was kind

00:05:51.423 –> 00:05:54.803

of complaining about going back to the classroom at the end of the summer.

00:05:55.463 –> 00:05:59.183

And so she signed my Alaska PacGraph guidebook that I bought from her.

00:05:59.283 –> 00:06:03.843

And she wrote, quit your job inside of it. And I was like, okay.

00:06:04.183 –> 00:06:08.843

And so then like a month later, I had been thinking about it and thinking about it since she wrote that.

00:06:09.323 –> 00:06:12.003

And I reached out to her and I was like, I think I want to quit my job.

00:06:12.143 –> 00:06:15.663

Do you have any ideas for me? And she was like, I’ll create a job for you.

00:06:15.983 –> 00:06:20.943

And so Jewel Harley created a full-time position with the Alaska Packraft School

00:06:20.943 –> 00:06:26.663

year-round so that I could be more involved in that world and kind of just have

00:06:26.663 –> 00:06:29.643

a quick segue into the outdoors industry.

00:06:30.103 –> 00:06:33.883

And so that was really awesome. And that’s been incredible working with Jewel

00:06:33.883 –> 00:06:36.303

and the Alaska Packraft School and getting involved in that community.

00:06:36.483 –> 00:06:41.243

So Jewel has supported me in building my pack rafting skills and becoming an

00:06:41.243 –> 00:06:44.083

instructor and getting certifications and all that kind of stuff.

00:06:45.323 –> 00:06:48.843

Justin Yoder just kind of explained my entrance

00:06:48.843 –> 00:06:53.863

into LGBTQ Outdoors a little bit as an ambassador and getting going with the

00:06:53.863 –> 00:06:59.523

Alaska Adventure Trip and just kind of trying to find those different ways that

00:06:59.523 –> 00:07:04.723

those intersects between all of the aspects of my life between LGBTQ Outdoors

00:07:04.723 –> 00:07:07.163

and pack rafting and that job.

00:07:08.357 –> 00:07:13.217

Yeah, that’s kind of what I’ve got right now for who I am.

00:07:13.317 –> 00:07:17.497

I’m sure we’ll get into more about who I am as we go forward. Yes, definitely.

00:07:17.737 –> 00:07:21.717

And I feel like I should mention the Armida Huerta Adventure Fund.

00:07:22.157 –> 00:07:27.257

A good friend of ours died just over a year ago, March.

00:07:27.617 –> 00:07:32.257

My friend Armida Huerta and my friend Tammy Graham, her longtime partner.

00:07:32.257 –> 00:07:35.277

And I after we were she and

00:07:35.277 –> 00:07:38.837

Armida and I were supposed to do a course for queer folk

00:07:38.837 –> 00:07:41.917

last summer it was a three-day retreat but then

00:07:41.917 –> 00:07:46.897

Armida died and so we after after she died we weren’t quite sure what to do

00:07:46.897 –> 00:07:52.617

and Tammy had to you know heal a bit and then we decided well we need to continue

00:07:52.617 –> 00:07:58.797

on with the mission and the idea of it because Armida would have wanted us to

00:07:58.797 –> 00:08:00.357

she was very passionate about the subject.

00:08:00.577 –> 00:08:04.817

She was queer and Latina, and so she wanted to always get more women into the

00:08:04.817 –> 00:08:07.977

outdoors, more women of color, and more queer folks.

00:08:08.117 –> 00:08:13.597

So that’s sort of the reason that we started doing these courses through Four Corners Guides.

00:08:13.697 –> 00:08:17.957

And we ran our first one last year, and then this year we have a course scheduled

00:08:17.957 –> 00:08:19.817

in May for women of color.

00:08:20.017 –> 00:08:23.457

And then we have our four-day backpacking course

00:08:23.457 –> 00:08:26.457

that Justin Bickley is coming down from Alaska

00:08:26.457 –> 00:08:29.337

to do with us in September and

00:08:29.337 –> 00:08:32.317

that will be an expedition pack rafting course level one to Dark Canyon

00:08:32.317 –> 00:08:35.157

so that’s sort of how we’re tying all these three things

00:08:35.157 –> 00:08:38.197

together we’re also supporting two people

00:08:38.197 –> 00:08:41.357

and I my understanding is are they through did you

00:08:41.357 –> 00:08:47.637

meet them Justin Yoder through LGBTQ Outdoors these two trans women right um

00:08:47.637 –> 00:08:52.597

and they are okay and they’ll be oh sorry go on yeah I was just gonna say one’s

00:08:52.597 –> 00:08:58.977

trans and one is a lesbian um but they’re both been active a part of our organization for.

00:09:00.177 –> 00:09:04.657

At least three or four years now and just awesome women that we’re excited to

00:09:04.657 –> 00:09:05.737

be able to have a part of the trip,

00:09:06.530 –> 00:09:10.650

Yeah, we’re excited about supporting them. So let’s dive in a little bit.

00:09:10.850 –> 00:09:15.070

I got a little bit about your backgrounds. I’m kind of curious about LGBTQ outdoors

00:09:15.070 –> 00:09:19.530

because it seems like you didn’t start it that long ago and you’re all over

00:09:19.530 –> 00:09:20.610

the United States already.

00:09:21.130 –> 00:09:24.750

So impressive. Tell me how that happened.

00:09:25.330 –> 00:09:27.710

Yeah, accidentally, kind of.

00:09:28.890 –> 00:09:33.110

It’s like, before that, I was a photographer, and I’ve done different things in my life.

00:09:33.230 –> 00:09:39.270

And I’ve never had something that has so organically and naturally just taken off like this before.

00:09:39.470 –> 00:09:42.850

It’s been a very surreal ride to be on.

00:09:42.850 –> 00:09:48.350

There’s the long version, but I kind of keep it a little bit on the shorter side of when I came out,

00:09:48.470 –> 00:09:54.310

came out back in 2010 and kind of put my outdoors on the background while I

00:09:54.310 –> 00:09:59.750

dealt with me and whatnot, which I wish I didn’t because the outdoors would

00:09:59.750 –> 00:10:02.010

have brought a lot of healing, I think, during that time.

00:10:02.470 –> 00:10:05.850

But eventually when things came circle back around, I was like,

00:10:05.930 –> 00:10:08.830

man, I haven’t been doing anything outside in like years.

00:10:09.450 –> 00:10:14.190

So I started looking for queer groups to get involved with in the outdoors.

00:10:14.270 –> 00:10:18.450

And especially here in Texas, I just was not finding anything.

00:10:18.750 –> 00:10:21.670

There was a couple smaller ones around the country that were regional.

00:10:22.070 –> 00:10:27.330

And REI was doing some stuff that was kind of inclusive as well that you could be.

00:10:28.298 –> 00:10:32.218

Do mixed groups and outings and stuff with but i wasn’t just finding something

00:10:32.218 –> 00:10:37.998

that i really wanted to be a part of and and honestly i could you know fit into

00:10:37.998 –> 00:10:40.358

any kind of outdoor group and,

00:10:41.118 –> 00:10:47.258

potentially you know slide by as a straight cis man white man and just fit in

00:10:47.258 –> 00:10:51.738

but i didn’t want to put myself in kind of the position to give me the opportunity

00:10:51.738 –> 00:10:54.638

to not fully embrace myself and,

00:10:55.418 –> 00:10:58.318

you know really stand on my two feet and for who i

00:10:58.318 –> 00:11:01.418

was so i just finally came to

00:11:01.418 –> 00:11:04.318

the decision i’m going to start an instagram and the whole purpose

00:11:04.318 –> 00:11:09.938

of this instagram is to show people that queer people do like the outdoors as

00:11:09.938 –> 00:11:15.078

well and breaking down those stereotypes as well as hopefully encouraging some

00:11:15.078 –> 00:11:23.098

of our community to get active in the outdoors by seeing these posts so that’s all that I set out to do.

00:11:24.318 –> 00:11:28.678

And it was just within a few months of doing that and highlighting people in

00:11:28.678 –> 00:11:33.318

the community on that page that I started receiving messages saying,

00:11:33.318 –> 00:11:36.858

I’ve been looking for something like this. I found my tribe.

00:11:37.238 –> 00:11:42.878

This is my family. I’m like, what are we talking about? Because this is just an Instagram account.

00:11:43.998 –> 00:11:47.918

You know, there is there is nothing here other than an Instagram account.

00:11:48.098 –> 00:11:50.098

But if it’s encouraging you, that’s great.

00:11:50.338 –> 00:11:53.178

But I don’t I don’t get what you mean you found your tribe through this.

00:11:53.578 –> 00:11:58.678

But as time went on, I realized the need for something like this that could

00:11:58.678 –> 00:12:03.798

provide the the outlet that a lot of these people were talking about and really needing.

00:12:03.958 –> 00:12:10.798

Time went by and the Instagram turned into a website that was more of a blog driven website.

00:12:10.798 –> 00:12:14.598

And we would have guest blogs come up, bloggers come on that were queer and

00:12:14.598 –> 00:12:18.618

write articles about how to get involved in fly fishing or backpacking or through

00:12:18.618 –> 00:12:23.998

hikes or whatever the case was and then that took off and so then people started

00:12:23.998 –> 00:12:25.238

reaching out how can we get more.

00:12:26.939 –> 00:12:29.779

And i was like i don’t know like i don’t i

00:12:29.779 –> 00:12:33.319

don’t know what we’re doing right now you know what are we doing here and

00:12:33.319 –> 00:12:36.279

so being here in texas there was two people that reached

00:12:36.279 –> 00:12:38.999

out one was in here in fort word texas and one in

00:12:38.999 –> 00:12:42.279

houston and they’re like we don’t care how but

00:12:42.279 –> 00:12:45.459

we want to be involved and we want to do something with this and

00:12:45.459 –> 00:12:48.779

so we’re like well let’s start an ambassador program

00:12:48.779 –> 00:12:51.719

and you guys can start leading local events in

00:12:51.719 –> 00:12:54.619

your area and we tried that

00:12:54.619 –> 00:12:57.839

and especially um the one in

00:12:57.839 –> 00:13:01.199

the first one that was in houston really impacted me

00:13:01.199 –> 00:13:07.039

greatly he did a fishing trip at a lake down there in houston he had 12 people

00:13:07.039 –> 00:13:13.599

that came there was lesbians that were gay guys there was a guy that was not

00:13:13.599 –> 00:13:18.379

even out just this wide variety some were fly fishing some were conventional fishing.

00:13:18.839 –> 00:13:23.299

And he said at one point they were all underneath this bridge fishing and listening

00:13:23.299 –> 00:13:24.599

to Britney Spears, of course.

00:13:24.999 –> 00:13:31.939

And he asked them, how many of you have never gone fishing with another queer person before?

00:13:32.199 –> 00:13:35.199

And every single person said they had never done that before.

00:13:35.499 –> 00:13:39.599

And of course, there’s nothing wrong with going fishing with straight people, obviously.

00:13:40.099 –> 00:13:45.159

But when you have that community of people that understand some of the struggles

00:13:45.159 –> 00:13:51.379

that you’ve into and what it’s like growing up queer and all the backlash that

00:13:51.379 –> 00:13:53.499

we can get and everything. And then you get to experience…

00:13:55.368 –> 00:13:58.028

Each other in those outdoor settings it’s just

00:13:58.028 –> 00:14:00.788

a powerful thing um and so

00:14:00.788 –> 00:14:03.688

the ambassador program just started taking off and uh

00:14:03.688 –> 00:14:08.028

took us a while to get that developed and understand how to run it smoothly

00:14:08.028 –> 00:14:13.028

and whatnot and i think we have now probably around 25 chapters around the u.s

00:14:13.028 –> 00:14:18.448

and with around 40 different ambassadors and you formed a non-profit yeah we

00:14:18.448 –> 00:14:20.888

yeah we did form it as a non-profit.

00:14:21.188 –> 00:14:27.048

I was kind of pretty against that at the beginning because I had actually run

00:14:27.048 –> 00:14:31.748

a non-profit before that I started from 2023 to 2020 10 when I came out.

00:14:32.148 –> 00:14:36.988

And when I came out, the board took that non-profit away from me and shut it down because I was gay.

00:14:37.148 –> 00:14:40.348

So when you have a non-profit, it can be your dream and your idea and your baby.

00:14:40.468 –> 00:14:42.848

But of course, your board is the one that has ultimate control over it.

00:14:42.948 –> 00:14:46.628

So I said, I’ve never started in another non-profit again. And here we are.

00:14:48.528 –> 00:14:53.288

I had a wise lawyer speaking to me in my life and said, you know,

00:14:53.408 –> 00:14:56.268

this is really the way that you need to go. And he was right.

00:14:56.428 –> 00:15:01.088

And so we did start it as a nonprofit and we keep on growing and have these amazing programs.

00:15:01.428 –> 00:15:06.448

So the program is the heartbeat of it, of course, but we do have other programs that we do as well.

00:15:06.848 –> 00:15:11.288

Was that in 2019 that you became a nonprofit or is that when you started the Instagram?

00:15:11.288 –> 00:15:18.068

That’s when i started the instagram yeah we became a non-profit in 2022 i believe

00:15:18.068 –> 00:15:24.508

it was not very long ago for for everything that has taken place that’s awesome

00:15:24.508 –> 00:15:26.608

congratulations and thank you

00:15:26.608 –> 00:15:30.428

for starting profit even though i know it’s sort of serious i’ve started.

00:15:32.808 –> 00:15:39.148

Myself like why am i doing this again But it’s important, especially now.

00:15:39.408 –> 00:15:42.208

It is. We need this now. Absolutely. Absolutely.

00:15:42.788 –> 00:15:45.728

I want to ask Justin, I’m going to jump around on these questions that I have

00:15:45.728 –> 00:15:50.568

on my list because, Justin Bickley, I want to ask you, because I want to build

00:15:50.568 –> 00:15:54.488

off of what Justin Yoder said, I want to ask you about what you have gotten

00:15:54.488 –> 00:15:56.488

from being in the outdoors with other queer folk.

00:15:57.088 –> 00:16:01.108

So I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately because I took on this role as

00:16:01.108 –> 00:16:03.748

partnerships coordinator for LGBTQ Outdoors,

00:16:04.028 –> 00:16:08.348

which has been awesome and a lot of fun to kind of figure out who is supportive

00:16:08.348 –> 00:16:15.628

of the LGBTQ community in outdoors industry and all of that.

00:16:16.088 –> 00:16:21.208

And so trying to think about why this matters to me, like why is this something

00:16:21.208 –> 00:16:26.768

that actually impacts my life and why do I feel so strongly about it?

00:16:27.088 –> 00:16:32.728

Growing up, living here, my family went down south to fish on the Kenai and

00:16:32.728 –> 00:16:36.028

the Russian River every weekend, pretty much, all through the summer.

00:16:36.248 –> 00:16:38.628

We would take our camper down there, and we’d spend three days,

00:16:38.748 –> 00:16:40.888

and we would just be fishing the entire time.

00:16:41.608 –> 00:16:46.748

And it was amazing, and I would wait around in the rivers and try and catch

00:16:46.748 –> 00:16:51.308

minnows and do all the stuff that little kids do when they’re fishing or when

00:16:51.308 –> 00:16:52.208

the family goes fishing.

00:16:53.228 –> 00:16:58.808

And what Justin was just saying, Justin Yoder was just saying about not having

00:16:58.808 –> 00:17:00.648

gone fishing with other queer folks,

00:17:01.548 –> 00:17:08.008

that was kind of the beginning of all of me kind of getting separated from my

00:17:08.008 –> 00:17:11.288

dad and my brother and they’re wonderful people and I love them,

00:17:11.348 –> 00:17:12.668

but there’s definitely like,

00:17:12.808 –> 00:17:17.188

I started realizing that I was different than them and didn’t really connect

00:17:17.188 –> 00:17:19.628

with them in those ways and didn’t feel like,

00:17:20.368 –> 00:17:24.568

I belonged on those fishing trips. And so then as I got older.

00:17:25.328 –> 00:17:31.628

I realized that I didn’t have those kinds of mentorships in the outdoors. I loved being outside.

00:17:31.828 –> 00:17:36.348

In college, I went to college in Hawaii and I was doing a lot of trail running,

00:17:36.548 –> 00:17:42.028

barefoot trail running, big runs and trips and learning to surf and learning

00:17:42.028 –> 00:17:44.288

to sail and just lots of stuff outside.

00:17:44.588 –> 00:17:52.368

But I didn’t have that direct mentorship from my dad or my brother or my family

00:17:52.368 –> 00:17:54.148

in outdoor stuff growing up.

00:17:54.348 –> 00:17:56.408

I just didn’t feel connected to them.

00:17:56.628 –> 00:18:00.168

And there’s like a level of like hyper masculinity that happens when a bunch

00:18:00.168 –> 00:18:04.388

of like straight men get together and go fishing that just like doesn’t fit.

00:18:04.588 –> 00:18:08.348

And so I guess I’m realizing that the mentorship

00:18:08.348 –> 00:18:11.328

that comes from working with other people that are

00:18:11.328 –> 00:18:14.928

queer in the outdoors and feeling like really included

00:18:14.928 –> 00:18:18.228

and like I can relate to people and the

00:18:18.228 –> 00:18:21.348

social conversations around being outside

00:18:21.348 –> 00:18:24.128

and that we have when we’re outside just to make more sense to

00:18:24.128 –> 00:18:27.408

me and they feel more personal and

00:18:27.408 –> 00:18:34.728

so LGBTQ outdoors has kind of provided that in a lot of ways the LGBTQ outdoors

00:18:34.728 –> 00:18:40.268

Alaska trip last summer was kind of like what made me really realize that and

00:18:40.268 –> 00:18:44.228

I started learning a lot about other people within the LGBTQ community.

00:18:44.968 –> 00:18:50.808

That I just didn’t ever think about before or realize and that gave me a connection

00:18:50.808 –> 00:18:57.508

to the outdoors in that trip that I hadn’t had before and kind of showed me

00:18:57.508 –> 00:19:01.748

the vulnerability that we have to have to do those outdoorsy things with people

00:19:01.748 –> 00:19:04.368

and developing those vulnerable,

00:19:04.648 –> 00:19:08.608

authentic relationships with other queer people outside,

00:19:09.848 –> 00:19:11.788

strengthens all of us while we’re doing it.

00:19:13.067 –> 00:19:16.687

I’m curious about, can you give an example of what,

00:19:17.467 –> 00:19:20.807

like, is it cross-queer community, like, because you’re a gay man,

00:19:20.947 –> 00:19:24.327

like, are you talking about a trans experience or experience that a lesbian

00:19:24.327 –> 00:19:29.827

might have had, or like, I’m just, or is it more of a general awareness thing that you realize?

00:19:29.827 –> 00:19:32.867

Yeah so there was another trans person on our

00:19:32.867 –> 00:19:36.107

trip and to them they

00:19:36.107 –> 00:19:40.667

were just a straight man and they weren’t they didn’t necessarily want being

00:19:40.667 –> 00:19:45.827

trans to be their identity and so there was just like this debate going on within

00:19:45.827 –> 00:19:52.127

them to like kind of figure out and they’re in a relationship with a woman to

00:19:52.127 –> 00:19:55.387

like figure out what their connection to the community even is,

00:19:56.007 –> 00:19:59.887

and if they belong in the community and how that fits in and if their partner’s

00:19:59.887 –> 00:20:03.367

welcome in the community and just like all of that different stuff.

00:20:03.647 –> 00:20:09.127

And I had never considered it. It sparked a curiosity in me to acknowledge that

00:20:09.127 –> 00:20:15.267

being a gay man doesn’t mean I understand being an LGBTQ person.

00:20:15.987 –> 00:20:19.787

That’s a really interesting point. And I just want to bring up one.

00:20:21.847 –> 00:20:26.727

So I’m married to a man, but I’m, I date women and men, but I’ve married to a man.

00:20:26.887 –> 00:20:30.067

And I’ve talked to a lot of young people like about when I was,

00:20:30.247 –> 00:20:34.007

you know, just in the last three years, because before the Armida Horte Adventure

00:20:34.007 –> 00:20:39.547

Fund, I had a group of other, uh, queer folk that I was trying to get some program

00:20:39.547 –> 00:20:40.847

going with that didn’t work out.

00:20:40.967 –> 00:20:44.767

And, and I remember saying, it’s like qualifying my queerness.

00:20:45.107 –> 00:20:50.187

Um, I’m 52, right. And I, but I’m bisexual. And I’ve had like back in the day

00:20:50.187 –> 00:20:54.907

when I came out, it was, there were a lot of women in my community who were

00:20:54.907 –> 00:20:56.667

like, oh, you’re bi, bi, bi.

00:20:56.867 –> 00:21:01.467

And I’m like, oh, okay. Wow. So, so I’ve like, from my experiences,

00:21:01.947 –> 00:21:05.907

30, whatever years ago, I, I had a certain way of being.

00:21:06.047 –> 00:21:08.987

And then I had all these young people and they were like, we don’t care if you’re

00:21:08.987 –> 00:21:09.887

with a man, you’re queer.

00:21:10.207 –> 00:21:13.247

And I was like, oh, and they’re like, yeah, don’t qualify it.

00:21:13.347 –> 00:21:15.167

Just don’t worry about it. Like you’re queer.

00:21:15.667 –> 00:21:18.547

That’s just you. And I was like, oh and I still

00:21:18.547 –> 00:21:21.627

think about that I’m still like huh I don’t

00:21:21.627 –> 00:21:24.507

know what to even do with that really because I’m

00:21:24.507 –> 00:21:28.767

52 and they’re all in their 20s and the things are it’s like so it’s generational

00:21:28.767 –> 00:21:34.727

too in how people think about like what it is to be queer it’s like yeah what

00:21:34.727 –> 00:21:42.627

is it to be queer that’s not on my questions but maybe you guys have some you answer that question.

00:21:44.207 –> 00:21:49.107

You know, it’s something that we are have grown in and then explored in our

00:21:49.107 –> 00:21:51.867

organization because there’s a lot of things that come up with it,

00:21:51.927 –> 00:21:54.987

you know, because, you know, like even, you know, Justin was talking about.

00:21:56.008 –> 00:22:00.408

You know, this person that was on our trip who identifies as a straight male

00:22:00.408 –> 00:22:05.548

that’s trans, has a girlfriend, and then so is the girlfriend welcome in the community?

00:22:05.748 –> 00:22:09.788

And for us as LGBTQ outdoors, yes, absolutely.

00:22:09.788 –> 00:22:17.368

But if we are going to define what being queer is to me and within our organization,

00:22:17.368 –> 00:22:21.128

it just basically means you’re not 100% straight,

00:22:21.488 –> 00:22:30.888

whatever that looks like, whether that is a trans person that is gay or gay, lesbian,

00:22:31.708 –> 00:22:36.168

non-binary, asexual, whatever, intersexual, whatever it is.

00:22:36.168 –> 00:22:41.428

If you’re not on the other side of the hard, I’m 100% straight,

00:22:41.868 –> 00:22:45.728

then we, we generalize it as then you fall in the queer community.

00:22:45.788 –> 00:22:49.008

And like, you know, that, that can mean a lot of things too.

00:22:50.008 –> 00:22:53.008

There’s not to get too deep right, right now, maybe,

00:22:53.148 –> 00:22:58.428

but you know, there’s a whole thing going on in our nation right now where there’s

00:22:58.428 –> 00:23:01.588

a lot of division within the LGBTQ community,

00:23:01.588 –> 00:23:05.088

especially when it comes to trans and non-binary

00:23:05.088 –> 00:23:07.908

people and i absolutely hate that

00:23:07.908 –> 00:23:10.908

recently found out that a a person

00:23:10.908 –> 00:23:13.968

i considered a friend is not a fan

00:23:13.968 –> 00:23:17.068

of trans people it’s it’s sad

00:23:17.068 –> 00:23:20.048

and heartbreaking when you

00:23:20.048 –> 00:23:23.788

hear somebody that you thought that you knew well comes

00:23:23.788 –> 00:23:26.468

around and says yeah trans people should not

00:23:26.468 –> 00:23:29.648

be a part of our our community and should not have the same

00:23:29.648 –> 00:23:33.848

rights that we do and whatnot and then you think about back to stonewall on

00:23:33.848 –> 00:23:37.468

how this all started and it’s like wait a minute trans people were some of the

00:23:37.468 –> 00:23:42.048

first ones who were fighting for our rights like we we are a family in this

00:23:42.048 –> 00:23:48.948

together so for us we we are so much about the family aspect of being queer.

00:23:49.668 –> 00:23:54.748

Wherever somebody falls and there’s other organizations out there that do work

00:23:54.748 –> 00:23:56.808

with the queer community in outdoor settings.

00:23:56.948 –> 00:24:01.588

And a lot of times they would do like a trans event or a, or just a gay men’s

00:24:01.588 –> 00:24:02.768

event or something like that.

00:24:02.908 –> 00:24:06.328

I have nothing against that. But for us with LGBTQ outdoors,

00:24:06.628 –> 00:24:11.428

every single person that falls in that queer community is welcome to every event

00:24:11.428 –> 00:24:16.708

that we do, because I can learn something from somebody else that is different from me,

00:24:17.068 –> 00:24:21.428

whether it’s somebody that’s older or younger, or somebody that’s black or somebody

00:24:21.428 –> 00:24:23.208

that’s trans or somebody that’s lesbian.

00:24:23.448 –> 00:24:28.428

And all that strengthens our community. So for us, if you’re queer, you’re welcome with us.

00:24:29.371 –> 00:24:33.151

I love that. I mean, that’s just building community, basically. And trying to,

00:24:33.551 –> 00:24:37.411

it’s like, instead of othering people for whatever it might be,

00:24:37.551 –> 00:24:42.431

they’re this color, they have three toes, whatever it is, like it’s including,

00:24:42.711 –> 00:24:44.371

and I appreciate that. Thank you.

00:24:44.791 –> 00:24:45.691

Justin, Bickley, is there anything

00:24:45.691 –> 00:24:48.711

you want to add to that? Or should we move on to the next question?

00:24:49.631 –> 00:24:52.351

No i don’t think i have anything to add i think that

00:24:52.351 –> 00:24:55.731

that’s very all-encompassing statement everyone

00:24:55.731 –> 00:25:01.471

is welcome that identifies as queer and wants to be a part of supporting each

00:25:01.471 –> 00:25:05.971

other in this community and we don’t question what that means to you we’re interested

00:25:05.971 –> 00:25:10.631

in learning i am definitely interested in what that means to you because i don’t

00:25:10.631 –> 00:25:13.211

understand i mean i’m 52 i’m bisexual,

00:25:13.531 –> 00:25:17.971

people don’t understand me, but like, I’m, you know, so I want,

00:25:17.991 –> 00:25:19.111

I want to understand other people.

00:25:19.811 –> 00:25:23.671

So what are some of the biggest challenges queer people face when participating

00:25:23.671 –> 00:25:28.071

in outdoor activities? And I want to ask you first, Justin Bigley,

00:25:28.431 –> 00:25:33.831

in terms of packrafting, like, what are some of the barriers do you think in packrafting?

00:25:35.591 –> 00:25:41.691

I think it’s just like all-encompassing kind of not,

00:25:43.191 –> 00:25:45.991

feeling there’s a need to

00:25:45.991 –> 00:25:49.311

be very vulnerable and authentic

00:25:49.311 –> 00:25:55.011

with the people that you’re doing these high-risk activities with whether that’s

00:25:55.011 –> 00:25:59.991

rock climbing or pack rafting or other sports where you need to have a safety

00:25:59.991 –> 00:26:06.271

net you need to have people that are willing and capable of supporting you when things go wrong.

00:26:06.811 –> 00:26:11.531

And we have to be open and vulnerable about where we are, who we are,

00:26:11.991 –> 00:26:16.071

what skills we’re bringing to the table in so many different aspects of that.

00:26:16.771 –> 00:26:22.751

And so if you’re not feeling comfortable to be your authentic self around people,

00:26:22.931 –> 00:26:24.871

it’s really hard to trust each other.

00:26:25.071 –> 00:26:28.511

And it’s hard to trust that other people are being authentic if you’re having

00:26:28.511 –> 00:26:29.551

a hard time being authentic.

00:26:29.771 –> 00:26:32.851

And for me, I think that was a big thing of it. is just like,

00:26:33.071 –> 00:26:34.991

I can trust this person to catch

00:26:34.991 –> 00:26:38.571

me because they know everything about me and they still are out here.

00:26:38.771 –> 00:26:43.091

They’re still doing it. They want to catch me and we’re in it together.

00:26:43.391 –> 00:26:47.551

I think that’s a lot of it with pack rafting and also just like representation.

00:26:48.631 –> 00:26:53.531

And in Alaska, it feels a little bit different because people are in Alaska

00:26:53.531 –> 00:26:55.391

to be outdoors in a lot of ways.

00:26:55.691 –> 00:27:00.751

And so like queer or straight, cis or trans, whatever it is,

00:27:00.751 –> 00:27:05.591

people are here and most people want to do outdoorsy stuff because that’s what we’ve got.

00:27:05.771 –> 00:27:08.231

We don’t really have a whole lot of other stuff going on in Alaska.

00:27:08.571 –> 00:27:12.731

And so people are just kind of getting outdoors anyways, with or without the community.

00:27:12.911 –> 00:27:19.291

But I think coming together and really being able to get involved in that and

00:27:19.291 –> 00:27:22.231

feeling supported by other people for it is huge.

00:27:23.690 –> 00:27:30.830

So nonjudgmental spaces with other people that, that if they don’t totally understand

00:27:30.830 –> 00:27:37.950

you, want to understand you and accept you and will support you for who you are. Yeah.

00:27:38.710 –> 00:27:45.310

Okay. I love that. And Yoder, do you want to build on that and like other things

00:27:45.310 –> 00:27:46.530

that you see that are barriers?

00:27:47.350 –> 00:27:53.090

Yeah. I mean, overall, I think Justin hit it with that. But if I’m to expand

00:27:53.090 –> 00:27:58.010

it at all, a lot of it does come down to that fear of being accepted.

00:27:58.030 –> 00:28:01.270

There is the huge safety aspect of being in the outdoors.

00:28:01.630 –> 00:28:08.210

And for a lot of people, that safety aspect is also not just is the person that

00:28:08.210 –> 00:28:12.770

are people that I’m going to be with going to be OK with me being queer.

00:28:13.050 –> 00:28:21.030

And that might hinder my safety in some way, but also just going hiking on a trail, you know, and if.

00:28:21.810 –> 00:28:24.990

It’s obvious that they are part of the queer community are they

00:28:24.990 –> 00:28:28.250

going to feel safe and whatnot and a lot of people don’t and

00:28:28.250 –> 00:28:31.390

a lot of people don’t understand that too because yeah

00:28:31.390 –> 00:28:35.270

we’re gonna have people say the most stupid stupid

00:28:35.270 –> 00:28:41.430

stuff to us on on com on instagram and stuff comments being like nature doesn’t

00:28:41.430 –> 00:28:45.390

care if you’re gay it’s fine you should be welcome outside and whatnot you know

00:28:45.390 –> 00:28:49.930

from straight people that don’t understand but that’s just it like if you’re

00:28:49.930 –> 00:28:51.910

saying that kind of thing, you don’t understand.

00:28:52.170 –> 00:28:57.050

You don’t understand what it’s like when your parents tell you that you’re not

00:28:57.050 –> 00:28:59.990

welcome in their house anymore because you’re gay, or you don’t understand what

00:28:59.990 –> 00:29:03.430

it’s like when you grew up in a faith family and all of a sudden they’re telling

00:29:03.430 –> 00:29:06.830

you you’re going to burn to hell and you’ve got to change and go to conversion therapy.

00:29:07.010 –> 00:29:12.130

And you don’t understand when you lose your friends because they now think that

00:29:12.130 –> 00:29:13.710

there is something wrong with you.

00:29:13.830 –> 00:29:16.690

So there’s all of these aspects of it that a lot of people don’t understand

00:29:16.690 –> 00:29:21.830

that I wish that they would just meet up with somebody that is queer and take

00:29:21.830 –> 00:29:25.310

them to coffee and get to know them and understand where some of these fears

00:29:25.310 –> 00:29:28.150

come from because they are real.

00:29:28.370 –> 00:29:34.150

We have heard stories about people getting secretly filmed in the woods because

00:29:34.150 –> 00:29:36.350

of the way that they walk on a trail or something.

00:29:36.550 –> 00:29:39.730

And then it gets posted on Snapchat and different things,

00:29:39.950 –> 00:29:43.490

making fun of them it and just stuff like that so you

00:29:43.490 –> 00:29:47.370

know like it’s a real thing and the one

00:29:47.370 –> 00:29:50.070

thing that we would like to do that is to be able to

00:29:50.070 –> 00:29:52.990

have a queer group that they can go out on

00:29:52.990 –> 00:29:55.850

and so that they still feel like they can access the

00:29:55.850 –> 00:30:02.410

outdoors in a safe um and healthy spot and enjoy what the earth has to offer

00:30:02.410 –> 00:30:08.790

us without having to have those fears but um yeah it’s a challenge so it’s actual

00:30:08.790 –> 00:30:13.630

like real danger that people face at times.

00:30:13.910 –> 00:30:16.550

I mean, I guess you think of Matthew Shepard. That’s a.

00:30:17.569 –> 00:30:23.469

Yeah, you know, it is. It doesn’t happen a lot, you know, but I mean,

00:30:23.649 –> 00:30:29.429

we even have a board member that has run into physical violence in the outdoors

00:30:29.429 –> 00:30:32.389

because of how she identified and was assaulted.

00:30:32.669 –> 00:30:37.129

So I’m not saying it happens every day, but it happens. It happens way more

00:30:37.129 –> 00:30:38.869

than it should, for sure.

00:30:39.249 –> 00:30:43.289

And I think a lot of it comes from, you know, people not understanding.

00:30:43.289 –> 00:30:46.249

And that’s you know kind of what i was saying earlier and just

00:30:46.249 –> 00:30:50.069

trying to like we’re not that different you know like especially

00:30:50.069 –> 00:30:53.209

right now in in the u.s like there’s a lot of division that’s going

00:30:53.209 –> 00:30:56.869

on and people like to try to make people feel

00:30:56.869 –> 00:30:59.769

so much different than other people um what no

00:30:59.769 –> 00:31:02.549

matter who that is whether that is people trying to come here

00:31:02.549 –> 00:31:05.509

for a better life or whether that’s people coming here uh that

00:31:05.509 –> 00:31:08.669

are gay or people of color whatever it

00:31:08.669 –> 00:31:11.869

is at the heart of it we’re all human we just

00:31:11.869 –> 00:31:14.689

need to learn how to to break through those walls and not

00:31:14.689 –> 00:31:17.429

let people divide us i think

00:31:17.429 –> 00:31:20.489

there’s like a lot of times where people are like asking me

00:31:20.489 –> 00:31:24.769

why does this have to exist like like exactly what you’re saying yes like this

00:31:24.769 –> 00:31:29.009

is like queer people or anybody can go outside nature doesn’t judge and i’m

00:31:29.009 –> 00:31:34.549

part of me is also why does it matter that it does exist because we’re just

00:31:34.549 –> 00:31:38.089

a community of people that want to get outside with other people that are in our community.

00:31:38.529 –> 00:31:42.949

And that could be it. Like, that’s also enough to just justify it.

00:31:43.169 –> 00:31:45.209

Like, we don’t have to necessarily justify it.

00:31:46.269 –> 00:31:50.449

We don’t. And to go along with that, though, like, part of me wishes that we

00:31:50.449 –> 00:31:53.709

didn’t exist, that we didn’t need to exist, you know?

00:31:54.229 –> 00:31:59.429

Like, everybody just got along that great that we don’t have to have something

00:31:59.429 –> 00:32:01.889

like this. But, you know, we do.

00:32:02.149 –> 00:32:05.209

But like you said that as well justin like why does

00:32:05.209 –> 00:32:09.389

it bug you so much that we do exist yeah yeah

00:32:09.389 –> 00:32:12.429

i get that with so i started a women’s climbing

00:32:12.429 –> 00:32:19.169

magazine 25 years ago 24 years ago something like that and i it was because

00:32:19.169 –> 00:32:23.449

there wasn’t much written about women or by women in the climbing publications

00:32:23.449 –> 00:32:28.509

and i was just irritated and i kept asking the editors like why don’t you publish

00:32:28.509 –> 00:32:30.409

more about women oh well women don’t read our magazines.

00:32:30.409 –> 00:32:33.629

And I’m like, well, if you wrote more about women, then they might read it.

00:32:33.769 –> 00:32:36.789

And nobody believed me. And so I started this magazine. And it was like,

00:32:36.909 –> 00:32:40.629

it was a zine. It was not very big, but it was really popular with women.

00:32:40.809 –> 00:32:44.189

And I got it. I actually launched, like a bunch of women started writing for

00:32:44.189 –> 00:32:47.069

me who now have good careers in writing.

00:32:47.509 –> 00:32:49.869

And it was just that.

00:32:51.157 –> 00:32:53.977

That women weren’t acknowledged in the climbing

00:32:53.977 –> 00:32:57.177

community to the degree that i felt

00:32:57.177 –> 00:32:59.797

that they should have been and now look at what’s happening i mean

00:32:59.797 –> 00:33:03.597

my ex-girlfriend is one of the best climbers in the world and like

00:33:03.597 –> 00:33:06.217

you can’t even question like it’s one of the

00:33:06.217 –> 00:33:09.017

great equalizers like climbing like with women and men like

00:33:09.017 –> 00:33:11.677

women and men climb pretty much equally there’s like a

00:33:11.677 –> 00:33:14.557

few men who climb a little bit harder than the hardest women

00:33:14.557 –> 00:33:17.357

but it’s like it’s it’s a great equalizer i think the

00:33:17.357 –> 00:33:20.377

outdoors in general is a great equalizer and a great um

00:33:20.377 –> 00:33:23.017

uh yeah well i think equalizer is the

00:33:23.017 –> 00:33:26.657

right word anyway so just a parallel experience yeah

00:33:26.657 –> 00:33:29.457

and that and that doesn’t discriminate either the challenges of

00:33:29.457 –> 00:33:34.337

the outside like the outdoors don’t discriminate and so the outdoors don’t care

00:33:34.337 –> 00:33:39.097

like they’re gonna be just as dangerous in a lot of ways and they’re gonna be

00:33:39.097 –> 00:33:43.277

just as beautiful and all that stuff no matter so just kind of the other edge

00:33:43.277 –> 00:33:48.677

of that sword that that whole uh the nature, like outdoors nature doesn’t care who you are.

00:33:49.197 –> 00:33:52.097

Exactly. And yeah. All right, let’s move to the next question.

00:33:52.777 –> 00:33:57.857

Can you talk to me about, and this can be industry-wide, it can be community-wide.

00:33:58.137 –> 00:34:00.897

You mentioned a little bit earlier about this, Justin Bickley,

00:34:01.157 –> 00:34:03.657

but I think you both probably have something to say about this.

00:34:03.797 –> 00:34:07.477

Like what are specific examples of how queer people have been excluded or marginalized

00:34:07.477 –> 00:34:09.637

in the outdoor industry or in outdoor spaces?

00:34:10.157 –> 00:34:12.937

You know, besides like the danger uh you know

00:34:12.937 –> 00:34:15.717

like the violence of potential violence um but yeah

00:34:15.717 –> 00:34:18.417

other ways i think you should take that one

00:34:18.417 –> 00:34:22.017

justin yoder i think you’ve got some ideas yeah i

00:34:22.017 –> 00:34:28.077

mean number one to me would be representation um representation is huge in any

00:34:28.077 –> 00:34:33.037

any aspect right um if you want to feel like you are a part of something and

00:34:33.037 –> 00:34:39.157

you’re going to join something or you want to go shopping at a specific outdoor

00:34:39.157 –> 00:34:41.017

industry store or what not.

00:34:42.182 –> 00:34:45.862

Seeing you represented in the advertisements

00:34:45.862 –> 00:34:49.382

and their store is is critical right

00:34:49.382 –> 00:34:52.242

like and that doesn’t go just for us that can go for

00:34:52.242 –> 00:34:57.842

like people of color as well and a lot of chat has changed in the last especially

00:34:57.842 –> 00:35:02.662

last decade but we have a long ways to go we we want to know where we’re welcome

00:35:02.662 –> 00:35:06.862

and representation is a huge way to be able to do that so i think that is like

00:35:06.862 –> 00:35:09.442

probably number one for me.

00:35:09.702 –> 00:35:12.622

And I think that that’s, you know, a big part of why I started the Instagram

00:35:12.622 –> 00:35:18.102

is to, to show representation in the outdoors and let people know you are welcome here.

00:35:18.262 –> 00:35:23.942

Cause a lot, we have stories, so, so many stories of people that grew up in

00:35:23.942 –> 00:35:28.802

the, in the outdoors because their parents got them started or whatever the case would be.

00:35:28.962 –> 00:35:33.482

And then once they hit their teenies and start realizing their identity and stuff,

00:35:33.682 –> 00:35:36.802

all of a sudden, like they’re not seeing themselves represented anywhere and

00:35:36.802 –> 00:35:42.042

it’s like do i fit in don’t i fit in end up most likely going i don’t fit in

00:35:42.042 –> 00:35:45.982

there and then years and years go by and then all of a sudden they’re starting

00:35:45.982 –> 00:35:50.282

to miss the outdoors and be like well but i do feel like i want to be a part

00:35:50.282 –> 00:35:52.822

of the outdoors and so then,

00:35:53.302 –> 00:35:57.462

it comes back to that representation where can i find a place that i know that

00:35:57.462 –> 00:36:02.342

i’m going to be safe and welcome and want to spend my money and uh welcome to

00:36:02.342 –> 00:36:07.762

go in and ask questions to a customer service person or anything like that.

00:36:08.451 –> 00:36:15.331

Isn’t it accurate that we are 10% of the population? Yes. Almost. Almost.

00:36:16.471 –> 00:36:20.571

It’s a lot of money there. Outdoor industry businesses hear us.

00:36:20.751 –> 00:36:24.671

It’s a lot of money that we have to spend in your companies. You know what?

00:36:25.271 –> 00:36:28.371

It’s a lot of buying power. It’s billions of dollars.

00:36:28.991 –> 00:36:32.891

If a business, even if a business does not like queer people,

00:36:33.131 –> 00:36:38.311

it is a bad business decision not to do something to try to market to us.

00:36:38.451 –> 00:36:41.631

Of the of the pink dollar because of the buying power

00:36:41.631 –> 00:36:44.411

of of the queer community and you know you jump

00:36:44.411 –> 00:36:47.231

that down um each each generation you go

00:36:47.231 –> 00:36:50.391

down and that number just shoots higher and higher and

00:36:50.391 –> 00:36:53.331

higher and it’s not like you know i hear the most ridiculous

00:36:53.331 –> 00:36:56.251

things you know like you know like somehow we

00:36:56.251 –> 00:36:59.191

are converting more people to

00:36:59.191 –> 00:37:02.131

be gay or whatever the case may be and it’s like no we’re

00:37:02.131 –> 00:37:05.191

started to live we we were at least started to

00:37:05.191 –> 00:37:08.611

live in a time where we could be more

00:37:08.611 –> 00:37:11.971

accepted parents were starting to be more accepting grandparents were

00:37:11.971 –> 00:37:16.391

starting to be more accepting friends some religious institutions were starting

00:37:16.391 –> 00:37:21.091

to be more accepting and so people were feeling more like okay i can be authentically

00:37:21.091 –> 00:37:26.651

myself and whatnot um 2025 hits and we’re kind of in a cluster right now with

00:37:26.651 –> 00:37:31.951

that i still believe in the power that we have in in going back to representation,

00:37:32.271 –> 00:37:37.411

even outside of the outdoors, we are letting people know that it is okay to

00:37:37.411 –> 00:37:39.871

be you and live authentically yourself.

00:37:40.371 –> 00:37:43.711

Well, this is kind of a, I like this question. AI came up with this question.

00:37:43.711 –> 00:37:48.151

And I’m curious because of all the different members of the queer community,

00:37:48.271 –> 00:37:52.031

but common misconceptions or stereotypes about queer people in the outdoors

00:37:52.031 –> 00:37:53.691

that you guys have encountered.

00:37:55.073 –> 00:37:58.953

Yeah, I mean, there’s like the root of it that just the misconception that people,

00:37:59.213 –> 00:38:00.293

that queer people don’t do it.

00:38:01.013 –> 00:38:05.013

There’s, and that obviously keeps people from doing it. I don’t know.

00:38:06.113 –> 00:38:16.133

I know maybe one other gay Pat Crafter in all of like Alaska and like gay male

00:38:16.133 –> 00:38:18.993

Pat Crafter that I haven’t brought into it,

00:38:19.153 –> 00:38:21.693

like or tried to drag into it. And that isn’t my boyfriend.

00:38:24.413 –> 00:38:29.973

But it like which is just like wild to me and it all kind of just comes back to,

00:38:31.033 –> 00:38:33.713

like the community around it and all the going all

00:38:33.713 –> 00:38:36.873

the way back to being a kid like there’s just like this hyper masculinity

00:38:36.873 –> 00:38:40.313

around it i couldn’t go outdoors with

00:38:40.313 –> 00:38:43.593

before i came out like i couldn’t go outdoors with people or without

00:38:43.593 –> 00:38:46.893

other with other men without being asked so

00:38:46.893 –> 00:38:49.733

you’ve been dating any girls like just like

00:38:49.733 –> 00:38:52.573

all of this stuff that just kind of reinforces like

00:38:52.573 –> 00:38:55.813

the expectations of being like to

00:38:55.813 –> 00:38:58.793

be a man and what that looks like and i

00:38:58.793 –> 00:39:02.393

also there’s also the reality that i’m

00:39:02.393 –> 00:39:05.953

a white cis man that is

00:39:05.953 –> 00:39:10.553

very easily assumed to be heterosexual and

00:39:10.553 –> 00:39:13.713

so there’s not my experience is

00:39:13.713 –> 00:39:16.733

also so much different than a lot of people in

00:39:16.733 –> 00:39:20.613

the lgbtq plus community and that

00:39:20.613 –> 00:39:24.433

jumps back to like trying to come into an understanding like

00:39:24.433 –> 00:39:29.133

with the alaska trip last year and just learning about what it’s like to be

00:39:29.133 –> 00:39:33.473

trans and being curious with all of these different people and trying to understand

00:39:33.473 –> 00:39:39.633

their experience um and sometimes i feel like i’m the wrong person to ask because

00:39:39.633 –> 00:39:43.273

i’m not necessarily experiencing,

00:39:44.313 –> 00:39:47.733

causing nearly as much ostracization.

00:39:48.113 –> 00:39:49.093

Is that a word?

00:39:50.582 –> 00:39:53.962

No i tammy and i have had a similar conversation

00:39:53.962 –> 00:39:56.722

tammy co-founder of armida forte adventure fund because

00:39:56.722 –> 00:40:01.182

we’re both white women no you

00:40:01.182 –> 00:40:03.962

know people wouldn’t know well gay women know i’m

00:40:03.962 –> 00:40:06.822

queer but but mostly well would like not

00:40:06.822 –> 00:40:09.422

even think twice and i’m super privileged and i

00:40:09.422 –> 00:40:13.162

had my education paid for and like so my

00:40:13.162 –> 00:40:16.242

understanding uh is pretty limited

00:40:16.242 –> 00:40:18.922

i guess so i don’t even i don’t even know i don’t even know

00:40:18.922 –> 00:40:21.662

what a misconception is like i don’t know what

00:40:21.662 –> 00:40:25.282

people yeah i don’t i don’t know justin yoder

00:40:25.282 –> 00:40:30.602

do you have yeah i mean i would agree with what justin said as far as um number

00:40:30.602 –> 00:40:35.442

one is just that queer people don’t like the outdoors it’s too dirty it’s too

00:40:35.442 –> 00:40:40.042

hot it’s too cold there’s bugs you know all this kind of stuff like come on

00:40:40.042 –> 00:40:42.642

like we are not that delicate it.

00:40:44.562 –> 00:40:47.762

Now, of course, there are the ones that are like, oh, you want me to go camping?

00:40:48.002 –> 00:40:50.302

That better be glamping, you know, type of a thing.

00:40:51.202 –> 00:40:54.162

Yeah, but there’s a lot of normal, like, straight people, hetero people who

00:40:54.162 –> 00:40:55.582

are like that, too. Absolutely.

00:40:56.502 –> 00:41:00.022

Absolutely. But also, I think one of the big misconceptions is,

00:41:00.482 –> 00:41:05.022

too, to kind of go along with that is that they just don’t want to.

00:41:05.202 –> 00:41:07.562

Like, even if they’ve never tried it, they just don’t want to.

00:41:08.482 –> 00:41:14.202

I wish I had the percentage now from this poll that we did, but we did a poll

00:41:14.202 –> 00:41:20.602

one time and asked how many people in the queer community, it was a poll to the queer community.

00:41:20.742 –> 00:41:25.882

How many of you, if you’ve never thought about or done any kind of outdoor activity,

00:41:26.122 –> 00:41:28.382

would you if somebody asked you?

00:41:28.942 –> 00:41:32.022

And again, I wish I knew exactly what that number was off the top of my head

00:41:32.022 –> 00:41:36.122

now, but it was well over 50% said that, Like, yeah, I would try it once,

00:41:36.342 –> 00:41:38.862

you know, at least. And I’m like, great.

00:41:39.242 –> 00:41:43.342

You know, if I could take you on an easy hike on a mountain at sunrise,

00:41:43.342 –> 00:41:45.962

I’m going to get you back in the back afterwards.

00:41:47.582 –> 00:41:54.162

So I think that’s the biggest misconception around it all is just that they

00:41:54.162 –> 00:41:58.042

don’t want to, you know, that they wouldn’t like it, that it’s not their thing.

00:41:58.202 –> 00:42:01.602

And I think that that is just making trying to make excuses to keep people,

00:42:02.342 –> 00:42:04.002

queer people from getting in the outdoors.

00:42:04.002 –> 00:42:08.042

That’s so weird because i just never so that’s

00:42:08.042 –> 00:42:11.202

what you think straight people i think that’s weird

00:42:11.202 –> 00:42:16.602

because i just like i have i have seven lesbian friends who are into power crafting

00:42:16.602 –> 00:42:21.322

i got a few of them into it and some but i like i would never ever assume ever

00:42:21.322 –> 00:42:25.662

that any of my gay friends would not want to be in the outdoors i think that’s

00:42:25.662 –> 00:42:28.822

weird like what you so straight people really think that you think,

00:42:29.850 –> 00:42:30.370

Oh, yeah.

00:42:32.910 –> 00:42:36.910

We’re all in such places, right? Lizzie, you’re in Colorado.

00:42:37.390 –> 00:42:41.350

And like, that was the birthplace of a lot of outdoorsy stuff, right?

00:42:42.050 –> 00:42:45.750

And I’m up in Alaska, same kind of thing. Justin’s in Dallas.

00:42:46.330 –> 00:42:49.610

The perceptions of all of this is so different. Like the people in New York

00:42:49.610 –> 00:42:53.270

that I’ve chatted with when Rod was living in, my boyfriend was living in New York City.

00:42:53.270 –> 00:42:57.630

They have a completely different understanding of people’s relationship with

00:42:57.630 –> 00:43:02.310

the outdoors and who does what and stereotypes around all of that stuff.

00:43:03.370 –> 00:43:06.590

All right. Cool. That is so interesting to me.

00:43:08.570 –> 00:43:11.830

Come visit me for a weekend. I’ll introduce you to some people.

00:43:13.270 –> 00:43:17.710

I mean, I just don’t even imagine what I would talk to these people about.

00:43:17.710 –> 00:43:22.370

Like are you like do you all right

00:43:22.370 –> 00:43:25.350

i guess i’m in colorado and actually they call uh

00:43:25.350 –> 00:43:28.710

mancus the lesbian capital of colorado it’s ironic

00:43:28.710 –> 00:43:33.750

man that helps

00:43:33.750 –> 00:43:37.230

i do agree with justin though on that too like both of you are living in states

00:43:37.230 –> 00:43:42.810

that are very outdoorsy states on and known for that and i do think you know

00:43:42.810 –> 00:43:49.170

i don’t have any factual thing to back this up just from my experience and being with LGBTQ outdoors.

00:43:49.410 –> 00:43:53.310

I think lesbians are a little bit more on the outdoor side of things.

00:43:53.650 –> 00:43:57.490

Like this is the other, like this is another thing, like lesbians drive Subarus

00:43:57.490 –> 00:43:59.290

and they go outside all the time.

00:44:01.210 –> 00:44:02.810

Yeah, all the time, Subaru.

00:44:06.650 –> 00:44:10.390

Yeah, yeah. That’s funny. All right, cool. Let’s move on to,

00:44:10.910 –> 00:44:13.530

I guess, how can the outdoor industry do better?

00:44:13.730 –> 00:44:17.710

Like what are some things that they’ve done in the past few years and how can they do better?

00:44:18.950 –> 00:44:21.610

Oh, how much time do we have for that?

00:44:25.850 –> 00:44:31.170

I mean, number one, I’m going to come back to what I said earlier is representation.

00:44:31.370 –> 00:44:35.790

We got to feel welcome in the outdoor industry and in the stores and,

00:44:35.790 –> 00:44:39.750

you know, having queer people on business boards,

00:44:40.430 –> 00:44:44.070

queer products that in your stores that we can relate to,

00:44:44.070 –> 00:44:47.390

just letting us know that you want us like and

00:44:47.390 –> 00:44:50.350

want our business and want us to be involved because like

00:44:50.350 –> 00:44:53.390

i mean you start thinking when you think about the outdoor industry as

00:44:53.390 –> 00:44:56.130

a whole and this would be more about people that are queer will

00:44:56.130 –> 00:44:58.970

realize think about this you know how many stores do

00:44:58.970 –> 00:45:01.910

you go into and you see anything a product or

00:45:01.910 –> 00:45:05.130

an item and you’re like okay i feel

00:45:05.130 –> 00:45:08.070

i feel connected now because i feel seen

00:45:08.070 –> 00:45:11.250

because of a product that they have you know whether that’s

00:45:11.250 –> 00:45:15.710

an inclusive t-shirt or whatever the case may be we just want to know that we

00:45:15.710 –> 00:45:19.870

have a safe place when we walk in and that we can ask questions about products

00:45:19.870 –> 00:45:24.570

and not feel like somebody’s going to judge us and and all that so that would

00:45:24.570 –> 00:45:28.690

be that would be my biggest but there there’s there’s a lot that can go into that.

00:45:29.292 –> 00:45:33.872

Well, let me ask, just actually, I want to ask you a question a little more

00:45:33.872 –> 00:45:35.712

specific to packrafting and

00:45:35.712 –> 00:45:39.492

representation, because this is a question that came up at Alpaca a lot.

00:45:39.632 –> 00:45:42.792

So AlpacaRapt, when I worked there, and still now, they do a lot.

00:45:43.172 –> 00:45:47.452

They financially support the Armada Forte Adventure Fund, and they do have a

00:45:47.452 –> 00:45:51.952

cool LGBTQ t-shirt, like a rainbow t-shirt, and they do a lot.

00:45:52.032 –> 00:45:55.892

But one of the big problems was, it’s no pictures.

00:45:55.892 –> 00:45:58.712

Like i i do know a lot of lesbian pack rafters and

00:45:58.712 –> 00:46:01.492

they were you know we did actually post some pictures of armita when i

00:46:01.492 –> 00:46:04.472

was there on instagram but you can’t say this is a lesbian pack

00:46:04.472 –> 00:46:07.132

rafter because i mean

00:46:07.132 –> 00:46:11.072

i guess you can’t so how there’s this problem like okay you want representation

00:46:11.072 –> 00:46:16.312

but then how like how do we how do we do it and and in the pack rafting community

00:46:16.312 –> 00:46:19.132

i want you to answer that from like i know that you’re doing it through the

00:46:19.132 –> 00:46:23.512

alaska pack rafting school um but yeah what can we do i mean my instagram is

00:46:23.512 –> 00:46:25.512

the gay camper so i guess there’s times where.

00:46:27.852 –> 00:46:32.172

This is a gay person, or this is a trans person, and that’s up to the person, right?

00:46:32.492 –> 00:46:35.932

Whether or not they want that to be part of their identity that they’re presenting

00:46:35.932 –> 00:46:39.512

to the world, or one of the primary things that they’re presenting to the world.

00:46:39.692 –> 00:46:44.332

I think LGBTQ Outdoors is a great example of what people can be doing,

00:46:44.492 –> 00:46:48.632

like companies can be doing to make things more inclusive.

00:46:49.112 –> 00:46:52.492

The Alaska pack rafting, like the adventure trip that we’re doing,

00:46:52.692 –> 00:46:56.472

LGBTQ Outdoors partnered with the Alaska Pacraft School.

00:46:57.332 –> 00:47:01.872

Alpaca is a sponsor of that, and they’re also a sponsor of LGBTQ Outdoors as

00:47:01.872 –> 00:47:04.352

a whole, which is a new development, which is awesome.

00:47:05.172 –> 00:47:08.932

And then the Adventure Fund is being super supportive with that too.

00:47:09.292 –> 00:47:15.152

We filled that course up in, what, a month? After we posted that. So fast.

00:47:15.472 –> 00:47:18.672

And then the waitlist started growing.

00:47:18.852 –> 00:47:22.692

And there’s three or four people on the waitlist hoping that other people bail.

00:47:22.692 –> 00:47:27.012

And other people have expressed interest and like we’re trying to just we’re

00:47:27.012 –> 00:47:30.392

trying to figure out how we can invite more people and let more people on it

00:47:30.392 –> 00:47:33.312

and how next year maybe we do too and.

00:47:34.316 –> 00:47:40.616

It’s just like, that’s working. That’s a thing that is, I would have never guessed that.

00:47:40.776 –> 00:47:46.816

Last year we had four people and it wasn’t easy to necessarily get four people for the trip last year.

00:47:47.496 –> 00:47:51.436

We had to like really reach out and try and connect with different people and

00:47:51.436 –> 00:47:55.636

invite them and try and make things as possible for them financially and everything as possible.

00:47:56.356 –> 00:47:59.356

But then this year it just exploded. And I think a lot of the other adventure

00:47:59.356 –> 00:48:04.456

trips like people are super engaged with too that LGBTQ Outdoors is doing.

00:48:04.936 –> 00:48:06.516

So I think that’s an incredible model.

00:48:07.056 –> 00:48:12.636

The alpaca shirts are super cool. Like I think, and also REI at times has been

00:48:12.636 –> 00:48:16.356

incredibly supportive and like what they’ve displayed like in their Outside

00:48:16.356 –> 00:48:18.616

with Pride. Is that the REI stuff that they’re doing?

00:48:18.956 –> 00:48:23.656

Another example, like Micah Meyer and doing like his film for Banff and like

00:48:23.656 –> 00:48:28.596

traveling around the country and showing like rafting with queer people.

00:48:28.856 –> 00:48:31.716

I think there’s just a lot of, it’s a lot to do with visibility.

00:48:32.016 –> 00:48:35.216

Exposing that we exist and that we’re here.

00:48:35.636 –> 00:48:41.996

And it doesn’t necessarily always need to be blatantly gay person goes packrafting.

00:48:43.156 –> 00:48:49.756

It can also just be like, you guys don’t necessarily look like heterosexual

00:48:49.756 –> 00:48:53.276

cis men that another person can maybe look at them and be like,

00:48:53.516 –> 00:48:55.476

oh, that person looks like they relate more to me.

00:48:55.816 –> 00:49:00.956

It can be very nonchalant, passive inclusion of stuff. I don’t think it has

00:49:00.956 –> 00:49:05.856

to be like this big, aggressive thing all the time. It works that way too.

00:49:07.296 –> 00:49:12.176

Brassroots growth and building community and getting more people into the outdoors. Yeah.

00:49:12.796 –> 00:49:16.916

And part of me, like we started the International Packraft Film Festival this

00:49:16.916 –> 00:49:18.376

year and that’s kind of blowing up.

00:49:18.556 –> 00:49:22.076

Like I think we’ve got seven premieres around the world now and then a bunch

00:49:22.076 –> 00:49:25.376

of road shows on top of that. And the amount of sponsors that are stoked for it and everything.

00:49:25.616 –> 00:49:28.796

But like representing LGBTQ outdoors and that too. and

00:49:28.796 –> 00:49:32.076

part of me is like nervous to have the showing

00:49:32.076 –> 00:49:34.936

at Beartooth in Anchorage which is like

00:49:34.936 –> 00:49:38.856

obviously a red state to have LGBTQ outdoors

00:49:38.856 –> 00:49:43.196

stuff on the big screen in front of all of these people and there’s a huge hunting

00:49:43.196 –> 00:49:48.236

community which I feel I personally have a really hard time I want to get into

00:49:48.236 –> 00:49:51.756

hunting I think that would be really cool it’s a hard thing to break into because

00:49:51.756 –> 00:49:54.976

it feels super hyper masculine but there’s a huge hunting community amongst

00:49:54.976 –> 00:49:57.356

pack rafters as well and so like.

00:49:58.356 –> 00:50:00.056

There’s just like this anxiety in me.

00:50:00.196 –> 00:50:04.316

But that makes it seem all the more important, I think, that we expose it.

00:50:05.266 –> 00:50:08.806

Yeah. Can I add on to that with two other things that I think is.

00:50:09.686 –> 00:50:14.246

Yeah, that I think would be important to mention in this because you mentioned

00:50:14.246 –> 00:50:18.726

a social media post and mentioning this is so and so and she’s a lesbian.

00:50:18.986 –> 00:50:23.786

You know, an easy thing to do in a post like that is putting in parentheses

00:50:23.786 –> 00:50:26.046

after their name, just their pronouns.

00:50:26.046 –> 00:50:30.326

That doesn’t mean that they are lesbian or straight or whatever,

00:50:30.346 –> 00:50:36.046

but that is just a sign of inclusivity that you want to respect the person.

00:50:36.426 –> 00:50:40.926

And that lets really anybody that sees that you are using pronouns,

00:50:40.926 –> 00:50:45.106

that you are more on the accepting and inclusive side of things.

00:50:45.246 –> 00:50:48.866

So it’s a very soft and easy way to do something like that. The other thing

00:50:48.866 –> 00:50:52.306

is on social media too, is a lot of times when pride month comes around,

00:50:52.546 –> 00:50:59.126

there is this, everybody is posting everything pride and rainbows and happy and everything.

00:50:59.606 –> 00:51:04.386

We’ll do that other months too. You know, like we are glad for the support in

00:51:04.386 –> 00:51:08.426

June, but we were here 11 other months out of the year as well.

00:51:08.806 –> 00:51:15.246

So don’t be afraid to drop those, you know, posts and stories and whatnot throughout

00:51:15.246 –> 00:51:20.986

the year as well. and let the visibility and representation be there throughout as well.

00:51:21.266 –> 00:51:23.546

And that’s not like throwing stuff in their face.

00:51:23.986 –> 00:51:28.286

That’s just once in a while dropping a post out there to let everybody know,

00:51:28.466 –> 00:51:29.826

hey, you’re welcome here.

00:51:31.417 –> 00:51:33.297

I have one thing to add really quick.

00:51:35.757 –> 00:51:42.617

So when I was a kid, the only example of a gay man that I had in my life was

00:51:42.617 –> 00:51:43.957

my brother’s fifth grade teacher.

00:51:44.417 –> 00:51:49.777

And he was best friends with my mom. And my mom told us that he was gay,

00:51:49.857 –> 00:51:51.897

but we weren’t supposed to talk about it at school.

00:51:52.177 –> 00:51:54.117

And so it was just like this one example.

00:51:54.497 –> 00:51:59.517

And that’s totally his business. And I totally don’t blame him for the circumstances

00:51:59.517 –> 00:52:03.377

and the time and all of it. But that’s the only example I had of a gay person

00:52:03.377 –> 00:52:04.597

that was immediately in my life.

00:52:06.157 –> 00:52:10.237

And I was communicated to that it wasn’t supposed to be talked about.

00:52:10.617 –> 00:52:15.537

And so just simply having seen people and known that other gay people existed

00:52:15.537 –> 00:52:19.157

would have done tenfold more than anyone could have imagined.

00:52:19.937 –> 00:52:25.197

And I think that’s a lot of it. All right. So moving on.

00:52:25.437 –> 00:52:29.377

Oh, what role can allies play in creating a more welcoming environment for queer

00:52:29.377 –> 00:52:32.017

people in the outdoors? That’s a good segue, I think, to that question.

00:52:32.537 –> 00:52:36.657

I think one way is like, if you are an outdoors,

00:52:36.917 –> 00:52:41.877

a straight person that is into the outdoors and an ally, don’t just assume like

00:52:41.877 –> 00:52:47.977

any of your queer friends wouldn’t want to go with you and invite them.

00:52:47.977 –> 00:52:52.917

The worst they can do is say no, but like I said from that poll that we’ve done,

00:52:53.657 –> 00:52:57.617

we know that, and again, I forget what it was, but it was high.

00:52:57.757 –> 00:53:01.277

It was way over 50% of them said, yeah, I would go try it.

00:53:01.277 –> 00:53:03.977

So don’t be afraid to ask i think that would

00:53:03.977 –> 00:53:06.737

be number number one but also

00:53:06.737 –> 00:53:12.637

don’t be afraid you know just to drop

00:53:12.637 –> 00:53:19.737

those little hints of inclusion anytime whether it’s you know in the outdoors

00:53:19.737 –> 00:53:24.637

or not you know on social media like instagram header feel free to put your

00:53:24.637 –> 00:53:28.417

pronouns up there even if you’re straight that’s that’s fine but that kind of

00:53:28.417 –> 00:53:30.117

lets the queer community know,

00:53:30.357 –> 00:53:32.757

oh, you’re somebody that I’m safe with.

00:53:32.877 –> 00:53:35.377

So I think that those are some good ways.

00:53:35.957 –> 00:53:40.777

Even email signatures now, personal and business, putting your pronouns in there.

00:53:40.997 –> 00:53:47.757

It’s just a great way just to let people know who you are and that’s your safe place and inclusive.

00:53:49.224 –> 00:53:53.904

I think a huge thing, this is Justin Bickley now, I think a huge thing with

00:53:53.904 –> 00:53:57.444

a lot of it that’s just kind of a subtle,

00:53:57.644 –> 00:54:03.164

it seems like a small thing, but I think it can also be difficult for people

00:54:03.164 –> 00:54:10.804

to embrace is just minimizing the heteronormative, presumptive banter.

00:54:11.664 –> 00:54:15.204

In the outdoors when you’re talking stuff with friends.

00:54:15.204 –> 00:54:18.384

Like nobody knows like what someone

00:54:18.384 –> 00:54:22.304

like how somebody identifies internally in

00:54:22.304 –> 00:54:25.404

any capacity really and so just not assuming things

00:54:25.404 –> 00:54:28.204

and taking a step back and like realizing where we

00:54:28.204 –> 00:54:31.344

are assuming things i think that’s a huge a

00:54:31.344 –> 00:54:34.444

huge part of it how do you see it lizzie uh

00:54:34.444 –> 00:54:38.784

like living in like the lesbian capital of america how

00:54:38.784 –> 00:54:42.064

do you see allies supporting the queer

00:54:42.064 –> 00:54:44.924

community in the outdoors well i mean i have noticed

00:54:44.924 –> 00:54:47.944

a lot of financial support like for example

00:54:47.944 –> 00:54:51.204

from like sarah tingey from alpaca

00:54:51.204 –> 00:54:53.904

raft she’s uh actually on our she’s an

00:54:53.904 –> 00:54:57.164

advisory board member for i mean adventure fund and she’s

00:54:57.164 –> 00:55:03.744

straight but she’s very ever since i met her she’s been really passionate about

00:55:03.744 –> 00:55:11.204

bringing more diversity into pack rafting on all levels and i see a lot of that

00:55:11.204 –> 00:55:14.164

even i live been a really red county in Colorado.

00:55:14.524 –> 00:55:20.924

But there’s overall, there’s a lot of acceptance and there’s a lot of like non-judgment.

00:55:21.084 –> 00:55:27.444

Like Tammy Graham is one of probably the most loved humans in between Durango and Cortez.

00:55:27.604 –> 00:55:31.144

Like she’s super well known. She runs KSUT, the major radio station.

00:55:31.144 –> 00:55:35.744

She’s like raised tens of thousands of dollars for all these different nonprofits.

00:55:36.044 –> 00:55:40.604

And so people just like and respect her in general as well. So it’s like really

00:55:40.604 –> 00:55:43.104

easy to raise money, actually, with her on board.

00:55:43.524 –> 00:55:45.724

So I guess I feel like.

00:55:47.820 –> 00:55:51.300

I have a really right wing, red gun nut friend.

00:55:52.100 –> 00:55:57.320

And he even got the website. What is it like whitestraitmeal.com or something?

00:55:57.440 –> 00:56:00.100

And he always he talks about it. And I was like, are you homophobic?

00:56:00.120 –> 00:56:01.680

He’s like, Oh, no, I don’t care.

00:56:01.800 –> 00:56:04.520

And he and Tammy are good friends. And he and I are good friends.

00:56:04.620 –> 00:56:05.700

And he’s teaching me how to shoot a gun.

00:56:05.840 –> 00:56:10.440

And he literally like, because it’s like, you get to know people.

00:56:10.640 –> 00:56:13.800

And what you said earlier, Justin Yoder is that we’re all just people.

00:56:13.800 –> 00:56:16.580

Like I am queer but I also

00:56:16.580 –> 00:56:19.440

have a gun and want to learn how to use it and so that’s how

00:56:19.440 –> 00:56:25.280

this friend and I relate uh you know we relate in other ways too so I feel like

00:56:25.280 –> 00:56:30.160

people around here even though it’s pretty red they get to know each other they

00:56:30.160 –> 00:56:34.340

like each other they respect each other um a lot of people really loved Armida

00:56:34.340 –> 00:56:37.200

Armida didn’t identify as lesbian she just identified as.

00:56:38.480 –> 00:56:42.860

Armida and people loved her and so people come out of the woodwork to support

00:56:42.860 –> 00:56:45.380

her it doesn’t Yes, the lesbian community, absolutely,

00:56:45.680 –> 00:56:50.200

like, huge supporters of Armido Partid Adventure Fund, but all the peripheral

00:56:50.200 –> 00:56:53.440

people, too, because we all know each other and we all like each other and we

00:56:53.440 –> 00:56:56.580

all respect each other and support each other and buy things at each other’s

00:56:56.580 –> 00:56:59.980

stores and, you know, hire each other to do certain things.

00:56:59.980 –> 00:57:08.600

So I feel like building community and then getting to know people just on like

00:57:08.600 –> 00:57:12.000

a local level, like that is, to me,

00:57:12.280 –> 00:57:16.020

how allies can support the queer community.

00:57:16.140 –> 00:57:20.700

I feel like it has to be really local, especially now with the national leadership

00:57:20.700 –> 00:57:23.600

that we have trying to erase the queer community, basically,

00:57:23.740 –> 00:57:24.620

especially trans people.

00:57:24.620 –> 00:57:31.340

Like at your local level, get to know a trans person and bring that person with you.

00:57:31.520 –> 00:57:35.620

Go have a freaking beer with that person and play Scrabble and invite your other friends.

00:57:35.740 –> 00:57:41.740

And just like, I feel like that’s what I’ve seen here. And maybe Mangus is special

00:57:41.740 –> 00:57:43.100

and unusual. I don’t know.

00:57:44.380 –> 00:57:49.240

But that’s what I’ve seen has worked personally. Does that make sense?

00:57:50.060 –> 00:57:54.200

Absolutely. I see that in Alaska too. I think that’s a huge thing.

00:57:55.720 –> 00:57:59.700

It’s a red state, but people are also kind of just like, we all want to do our

00:57:59.700 –> 00:58:01.440

own thing, and we want to be able

00:58:01.440 –> 00:58:04.380

to do our own thing, and we want to let everybody else do their own thing.

00:58:04.680 –> 00:58:10.900

And everybody’s kind of open-minded, attached to that kind of mindset and…

00:58:12.531 –> 00:58:17.991

And so people are just going out and not even questioning in a lot of ways, which is great.

00:58:18.171 –> 00:58:23.111

And I think places like Dallas and Texas, like there’s a lot of other places

00:58:23.111 –> 00:58:24.511

around the country where that’s not happening.

00:58:24.851 –> 00:58:28.971

And so all of us in the other parts of the country where some of that is happening

00:58:28.971 –> 00:58:32.411

can be a really good example that can hopefully spread.

00:58:33.631 –> 00:58:38.391

I think to a degree, though, I want to believe it’s happening everywhere.

00:58:38.651 –> 00:58:40.811

Just some places it’s happening faster than other places.

00:58:41.091 –> 00:58:46.771

I think that, you know, we were talking earlier that nearly 10 percent of the entire U.S.

00:58:46.891 –> 00:58:51.031

Population is identified as LGBTQ at the beginning of this, which means more

00:58:51.031 –> 00:58:53.651

people are getting to know more queer people.

00:58:53.651 –> 00:58:58.051

And I think overall, it’s not my, this is not true for me, unfortunately,

00:58:58.371 –> 00:59:03.811

but for true for a lot of people, when a family member then has a member in

00:59:03.811 –> 00:59:05.331

their family that is queer,

00:59:05.891 –> 00:59:09.191

all of a sudden things start to change because it’s hitting home.

00:59:09.471 –> 00:59:15.171

And then it’s like, oh, do I really, you know, this is so-and-so. Do I want to judge them?

00:59:15.451 –> 00:59:19.271

Like, do I really not want them to have the same rights and the same life and

00:59:19.271 –> 00:59:23.071

the same joy that I have, even if I don’t agree with them?

00:59:23.651 –> 00:59:27.571

So I think there’s a lot of that that has changed, especially since marriage

00:59:27.571 –> 00:59:32.371

equality has happened and more people feel like they can come out and be their true selves.

00:59:32.531 –> 00:59:37.491

So I’m hoping that we continue to move in that way, because I even have this

00:59:37.491 –> 00:59:42.731

guy here that is I met through my father-in-law. You would describe him as your father.

00:59:43.580 –> 00:59:47.140

Good old texas redneck guy

00:59:47.140 –> 00:59:50.240

older guy loves his hunting and fishing and

00:59:50.240 –> 00:59:52.980

and living in the country and and all of that

00:59:52.980 –> 00:59:56.460

and until he met me he never really wanted

00:59:56.460 –> 01:00:02.180

or thought much about the queer community or supporting of them and and whatnot

01:00:02.180 –> 01:00:09.240

but through us developing our relationship and him inviting me out to his farm

01:00:09.240 –> 01:00:13.480

and whatnot and that’s connecting and whatnot some of his beliefs have started

01:00:13.480 –> 01:00:15.340

to change, which is great.

01:00:15.540 –> 01:00:21.180

And so I hope that more and more that happens. And I think that it will as more

01:00:21.180 –> 01:00:27.600

and more Americans accept who they are and then can be visible again to their

01:00:27.600 –> 01:00:28.760

families and communities.

01:00:29.300 –> 01:00:35.960

Yeah. And that just makes me feel like what the three of us are doing and other

01:00:35.960 –> 01:00:38.040

people who we work with is even more important,

01:00:38.280 –> 01:00:41.320

inviting people, helping them financially

01:00:41.320 –> 01:00:44.080

if they need it uh helping them

01:00:44.080 –> 01:00:46.860

feel welcome in the outdoors helping them feel represented in

01:00:46.860 –> 01:00:49.580

the outdoors because that will give people the opportunity i mean i don’t

01:00:49.580 –> 01:00:54.920

know about you guys but for me being outside is the most it’s the place where

01:00:54.920 –> 01:01:03.080

i feel like i can be most me 100 you know it’s dirty dirt under my nails like

01:01:03.080 –> 01:01:07.440

i just i feel more comfortable i never could fit in. I was a figure skater growing up.

01:01:07.780 –> 01:01:13.000

The judges always said I was too messy because I just couldn’t get my hair right.

01:01:13.040 –> 01:01:15.200

I couldn’t get my tights right.

01:01:15.420 –> 01:01:22.060

My laces were always too long. I just couldn’t make myself look the part of an ice skater.

01:01:22.240 –> 01:01:25.740

So just let people be who they are and give them the opportunity.

01:01:26.060 –> 01:01:30.620

And it doesn’t mean everybody’s going to want to be in the outdoors, right? But give the

01:01:30.620 –> 01:01:33.560

people who want it that 50% Justin Yoder that you’re talking about

01:01:33.560 –> 01:01:37.040

i think it goes both ways right like we’re trying to make help

01:01:37.040 –> 01:01:40.200

change the outdoor community to feel

01:01:40.200 –> 01:01:43.500

more inclusive for lgbtq people but also

01:01:43.500 –> 01:01:47.140

the outdoors like you’re saying is incredibly

01:01:47.140 –> 01:01:52.600

healing and it’s an incredibly positive place for our mental health and so just

01:01:52.600 –> 01:01:56.980

sharing that with the lgbtq community and so go in the other direction right

01:01:56.980 –> 01:02:03.340

like making lgbtq are helping LGBTQ people experience that like peace of mind

01:02:03.340 –> 01:02:05.160

that the outdoors provides a lot of this.

01:02:05.700 –> 01:02:08.800

And I don’t know about you, Justin Bickley, but, and Justin Yoder,

01:02:08.960 –> 01:02:14.260

but packrafting, I have one person out of the probably a hundred people I’ve

01:02:14.260 –> 01:02:21.880

taken packrafting who every single one of those people smiles all day long, stoked all day long.

01:02:22.080 –> 01:02:26.860

And I, more than half of them have bought packrafts. It’s so real.

01:02:28.633 –> 01:02:32.193

Actually, Justin Bickley, I don’t want to take too much more of your guys’ time

01:02:32.193 –> 01:02:35.573

because I don’t want to go too far over an hour, but pack rafting,

01:02:35.693 –> 01:02:38.813

why is it a unique way to get queer folks into the outdoors?

01:02:39.173 –> 01:02:42.413

I want to start just kind of from a general perspective. I think pack rafting

01:02:42.413 –> 01:02:47.493

for me is the most meditative, engaging experience.

01:02:47.733 –> 01:02:51.233

I used to love barefoot trail running. That’s not where I can’t do that anymore.

01:02:51.473 –> 01:02:55.413

It just doesn’t work for my body. But you have to think like 10 steps ahead,

01:02:55.413 –> 01:03:00.313

and you don’t have time to be caught up in other stuff that’s going on in your life.

01:03:00.533 –> 01:03:04.633

And it’s just, you have to be entirely present and paying attention to what’s

01:03:04.633 –> 01:03:05.993

next and what’s in front of you.

01:03:06.293 –> 01:03:10.373

You’re having to be at the whim of the river and figure out how to navigate

01:03:10.373 –> 01:03:12.293

alongside the whim of the river.

01:03:12.613 –> 01:03:18.193

And you can’t just like stop moving down without actively doing something to

01:03:18.193 –> 01:03:22.293

help yourself stop moving down the river and engaging with it in that way.

01:03:22.673 –> 01:03:27.373

And I think that just helps everybody in a lot of different aspects of their

01:03:27.373 –> 01:03:32.413

lives and helps kind of restructure the way that you face or that people face

01:03:32.413 –> 01:03:36.333

day-to-day life and perceiving it all kind of like that.

01:03:36.333 –> 01:03:41.053

Like it’s the flow of the river and we’ve got to navigate with what we’re going

01:03:41.053 –> 01:03:46.953

through and react to things as they come up and move on to the next thing and

01:03:46.953 –> 01:03:51.413

be ready to react to the next thing the best way we can and not get caught up

01:03:51.413 –> 01:03:53.853

on what happened before because we don’t have time for that.

01:03:55.853 –> 01:04:01.393

You want to add anything to that, Justin Yoder? I think that that was great.

01:04:01.553 –> 01:04:06.273

And he said that very, very well. I do think it’s, you know,

01:04:06.933 –> 01:04:08.533

again, we live in different parts of the country.

01:04:08.693 –> 01:04:13.573

It’s probably something that people down here in Texas really never even think about.

01:04:13.793 –> 01:04:17.513

You know, I never even heard of pack rafting before Justin Bickley came along.

01:04:17.773 –> 01:04:22.073

You know, I do a lot of kayaking and canoeing and that type of thing.

01:04:22.453 –> 01:04:26.833

Tubing, river tubing here in Texas is a big thing. But pack rafting, what is this?

01:04:26.993 –> 01:04:30.793

But I agree with him. Like the first time that I got to experience it,

01:04:30.913 –> 01:04:35.553

you know, last summer, once you’re on the water, You don’t think of other things.

01:04:35.813 –> 01:04:38.733

You are in the moment. You are in the scenery.

01:04:38.993 –> 01:04:41.573

You are thinking about what is going on and connecting.

01:04:41.973 –> 01:04:45.893

Like, it’s very much connecting with nature, with the water itself.

01:04:46.930 –> 01:04:49.630

Everything that’s in the water and i love it

01:04:49.630 –> 01:04:52.310

it is very i don’t know

01:04:52.310 –> 01:04:55.050

in a way i want to say it’s relaxing because it is but in

01:04:55.050 –> 01:04:59.690

a way it’s like it’s very mentally challenging as well yeah i would i would

01:04:59.690 –> 01:05:03.850

agree with everything that he said for sure and it’s just really really really

01:05:03.850 –> 01:05:10.430

fun ridiculous yeah yeah so i feel like we’ve covered like all the questions

01:05:10.430 –> 01:05:14.830

what do you think about getting patagonia on one of our pack rafting trips,

01:05:16.530 –> 01:05:19.270

we’ve got gotta pull our connections.

01:05:21.130 –> 01:05:26.050

Yeah that would be amazing in full drag on one of our trips i mean that would

01:05:26.050 –> 01:05:33.690

be amazing can you imagine them going down her is it her him um they they imagine

01:05:33.690 –> 01:05:36.610

them going down a whitewater rapid,

01:05:37.530 –> 01:05:41.670

hair flow what do

01:05:41.670 –> 01:05:44.710

you think yeah i would love it i

01:05:44.710 –> 01:05:51.390

think we should throw justin yoder and drag and do that okay are

01:05:51.390 –> 01:05:54.790

you gonna come on our trip and i haven’t even started advertising it yet i do

01:05:54.790 –> 01:05:59.350

actually need to start advertising that um what i’m wondering i should do now

01:05:59.350 –> 01:06:04.090

is the armita part adventure fund’s a little interesting right now we have some

01:06:04.090 –> 01:06:06.370

funds that I can send to you guys, for example,

01:06:06.790 –> 01:06:09.350

uh, send to these two folks who are doing the trip in Alaska,

01:06:09.350 –> 01:06:14.010

but a lot of our funds are, we have to use them locally in Montezuma and La Plata County.

01:06:14.170 –> 01:06:17.990

So I was thinking about how about we have the trip for like eight to 10 people

01:06:17.990 –> 01:06:21.850

and have half the people that can come from anywhere in the U S but they have

01:06:21.850 –> 01:06:25.190

to pay, but they can pay a discounted rate because I don’t have to make money

01:06:25.190 –> 01:06:27.610

on it. And then we have the other half be local people.

01:06:28.010 –> 01:06:29.930

Um, what do you guys think about that?

01:06:30.650 –> 01:06:34.790

I think that’s a great idea. Sounds amazing. Yeah. I’m super excited for that too.

01:06:35.850 –> 01:06:39.610

So it’s like my favorite canyon in Utah, which is saying a lot because I’ve

01:06:39.610 –> 01:06:41.070

been to a lot of canyons in Utah.

01:06:41.750 –> 01:06:46.250

So it’s just magical. There’s a river that runs through the entire section that

01:06:46.250 –> 01:06:52.130

we hike and it’s freshwater and there’s, there’s these pour overs and waterfalls and you can swim.

01:06:52.210 –> 01:06:54.750

And then it’s just like really beautiful and green. And it’s,

01:06:54.830 –> 01:06:57.570

you know, it’s like a canyon in Utah. So it’s really green and beautiful,

01:06:57.710 –> 01:07:00.690

but then all around it is desert and dry and sandstone.

01:07:01.130 –> 01:07:04.530

And then you get on the Colorado River and you’re on the river and it’s just,

01:07:04.670 –> 01:07:06.550

it’s such a beautiful trip.

01:07:06.690 –> 01:07:09.390

So Justin Yoder, you should just consider maybe coming on that trip too.

01:07:09.930 –> 01:07:15.150

I would love to. I haven’t even ever been to Utah. So I would love to.

01:07:15.610 –> 01:07:20.150

Now you have to take into consideration that I am running a fairly new nonprofit. Yes.

01:07:21.550 –> 01:07:26.030

Again. But if I can make it work, like I would be totally down for that.

01:07:26.030 –> 01:07:28.350

And absolutely love it. And that would be awesome.

01:07:28.930 –> 01:07:35.330

Anything I’m not asking you guys that you want to share with me or are we part ways?

01:07:36.848 –> 01:07:40.728

I mean, the only thing from my aspect is just if anybody wants to learn more

01:07:40.728 –> 01:07:42.668

about us to definitely check out our website.

01:07:42.928 –> 01:07:47.788

You know, I mentioned earlier that we have the ambassador program with local

01:07:47.788 –> 01:07:49.288

chapters going on across the U.S.

01:07:49.368 –> 01:07:52.588

So there might be one in your area or you might be interested in becoming an ambassador.

01:07:53.388 –> 01:07:57.348

We also do a big four day event this year. It’s going to be up in the Catskills

01:07:57.348 –> 01:08:02.628

in New York called LGBTQ Outdoor Fest, which is kind of like a four day queer

01:08:02.628 –> 01:08:07.068

summer camp with outdoor workshops and activities and amazing time of community. community.

01:08:07.368 –> 01:08:12.488

So yeah, people can go to our website. It’s lgbtqoutdoors.com and check out

01:08:12.488 –> 01:08:15.788

everything that we have going on. We’d love, love for people to get connected with us.

01:08:16.048 –> 01:08:19.928

Can I come and sponsor it with PackRafs next year?

01:08:20.708 –> 01:08:27.208

Absolutely. 100%. I will be teaching packrafting at this year’s LGBTQ Outdoor

01:08:27.208 –> 01:08:29.028

Fest, which I’m super excited for.

01:08:29.188 –> 01:08:33.828

So if folks are interested in kind of getting a little crash course on packrafting

01:08:33.828 –> 01:08:38.188

and kind of breaking into that whole world, that’s a great opportunity for that too.

01:08:38.828 –> 01:08:43.468

We even had it in Colorado last year. We should have, I wish we would have known each other then.

01:08:43.788 –> 01:08:47.368

It might be going back to Colorado very soon too. We kind of move it around

01:08:47.368 –> 01:08:49.908

the country so people can get different varieties and stuff.

01:08:50.228 –> 01:08:53.468

It would be easy if you moved it to Colorado because then I could,

01:08:53.848 –> 01:08:57.388

yeah, I would definitely come with all our boats and offer a free course.

01:08:57.848 –> 01:09:01.488

That would be amazing. We just go under the, you know, our Medapartya Adventure

01:09:01.488 –> 01:09:04.288

Fund umbrella. But yeah, I would love to.

01:09:04.408 –> 01:09:06.768

That’d be great. So definitely keep me in the loop moving forward.

01:09:07.528 –> 01:09:11.448

Definitely. Well, I so appreciate you guys taking the time to chat with me.

01:09:12.308 –> 01:09:15.668

Thank you. Nice to meet you, Justin. Absolutely. You too.

01:09:15.888 –> 01:09:19.568

Thank you for everything you’re doing for us and sponsoring those two to be

01:09:19.568 –> 01:09:22.408

able to go on the trip with us. It means a lot to us and to them.

01:09:22.568 –> 01:09:26.028

And I feel like all three of us are doing some great things.

01:09:26.028 –> 01:09:30.088

And so I’m excited that we’re in each other’s worlds now and doing it together.

01:09:30.608 –> 01:09:34.588

Yeah, me too. I think that that’s such a big part of it. It’s all of us just

01:09:34.588 –> 01:09:38.448

kind of coming together and not feeling divisive in this, uh, in these times.

01:09:39.028 –> 01:09:41.048

Yeah. Thank you, Lizzie. This was awesome.

01:09:41.748 –> 01:09:45.528

All right, guys. Have a nice day. Bye. Thank you.

01:09:48.008 –> 01:09:54.428

You can download this episode from pod bean or Spotify and head over to our website, www.

01:09:55.228 –> 01:09:59.868

Four corners guides.com backslash podcast to read the show notes.

01:09:59.868 –> 01:10:02.748

And that’s four corners guides with the four spelled out

01:10:02.748 –> 01:10:05.508

we’re really looking forward to another year of bringing you

01:10:05.508 –> 01:10:08.308

interesting fun conversations with packrafters from

01:10:08.308 –> 01:10:12.328

around the world have any suggestions for who you want to hear from please send

01:10:12.328 –> 01:10:17.408

them my way you can write us at thepackraftinglife at gmail.com this podcast

01:10:17.408 –> 01:10:21.248

is a part of our new business the packrafting life which also includes all things

01:10:21.248 –> 01:10:26.128

related to the bike raft guide and the packraft survey okay thanks a lot.

01:10:26.160 –> 01:10:45.373

Music.