Luc Mehl on Safety Tool Kits, Close Calls & the Risks & Rewards of Leveling Up

interview preview… (00:00):

Many who take my course ask how they can know when they’re ready for Class X. I’ve come to believe that the focus should be on one’s ability to help others. This shifts the focus away from personal achievement, such as completing Class III and moving on to Class IV. The question becomes, can I assist you in the middle of a Class III rapid? If I can, it means I have a good skill set in terms of boat control and reading the water. Can I help you in Class IV water? That’s more challenging, as Class IV is intense. It’s hard to catch the tiny eddy, but that’s the shift I’m trying to make for myself and impart to my students.

Opening intro to the podcast Lizzy Scully (01:00):

Hello, my name is Lizzy Scully. I’m the co-owner of Four Corners Guides and the co-author of The Bikeraft Guide with Steve Fastbender, AKA Doom. We run a multi-sport adventure guide service based out of the small town of Mancos, Colorado, home to Alpacka Raft, Mancos Brewing Company, and many other amazing small businesses.

We started this podcast last year to provide another learning channel for these activities. We’ll share informative interviews with experienced athletes, guides, and others in the community along with how-to episodes and storytelling.

If you have any requests or questions, contact us at [email protected] or comment on our social platforms.

Opening intro on LUc Mehl

Today we’re talking with one of the most accomplished individuals in the world of packrafting, Luc Mehll. He’s traveled over 10,000 miles by packraft, ski bike, and ice skates, often utilizing two or more of these tools on the same adventure.

Luc wrote the definitive guide on packrafting safety and skills. Every packrafter should have a copy of The Packraft Handbook. He’s one of the world’s best packraft instructors. He might not appreciate me saying this, but as far as I and many others are concerned, he’s the best. I always learn so much from talking with him.

Today, Luc and I will discuss a variety of subjects, mainly focusing on safety culture issues such as the risks and rewards of leveling up in packrafting, what close calls actually are, and how knowing more about them can help the packrafting and other adventure communities stay safer.

We’ll also look at tools he uses to be the best partner he can be to those he adventures with. I hope you enjoy episode #5 of, “A Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting & Bikerafting.” Let’s start by having you tell us who you are, where you are, and what you do.

Luc Mehl (02:56):

I’m Luc Mehl. I’m currently in my shed in Anchorage. I work in outdoor education. This is maybe my third or fourth year trying to make a full-time career in outdoor education. Before that, I did GIS and computer work.

Lizzy Scully (03:13):

Tell us what you’ve been focusing on lately. I want to hear the overall goal of your teaching efforts.

Luc Mehl (03:29):

I’m still defining that. I’ve transitioned from having very ambitious personal goals in outings to focusing more on outreach and education. The goal is to help people identify what can go wrong and how to prepare for it. Planning and preparation, while not exciting, have been effective and have allowed me to complete trips I wouldn’t otherwise have been able to do and to return home safe.

Lizzy Scully  (04:36):

That’s not boring to me. It was quite a good elevator speech. Now, tell me about the new programs you’re working on.

Luc Mehl (05:00):

In the rafting or river safety space, I’m trying to reach people. I see myself as a service provider. I have The Packraft Handbook for those who prefer that format, in-person teaching and an online course for the basics of river safety and boat control. I’m basically trying to serve the community in the ways they want to receive information.

Lizzy Scully  (06:24):

So you provide people with skills and education and then send them out to figure it out on their own.

Luc Mehl (06:30):

That’s the hope.

Lizzy Scully  (06:32):

Tell us about some of the new projects you’re working on.

Luc Mehl (06:36):

In the packrafting world, I have a busy teaching schedule this summer. There isn’t much room for new projects with how much I’ll be teaching. However, I do have mental space to brainstorm and solve problems. One big project has been working with American Whitewater and Sarah Glaser, who illustrated The Packraft Handbook, to redraft and redesign the safety code for Whitewater.

The project aims to modernize an existing eight-page document that’s hard to process, into a more manageable format. This is a collaboration between American Whitewater and the Coast Guard to save lives for recreational paddlers. We’re focusing on what really matters and using data to determine the major causes of accidents.

Lizzy Scully  (08:15):

When will the Whitewater code be finished?

Lizzy Scully (08:15):

What is the relevance to the Whitewater code?

Luc Mehl (08:20):

It’s a relationship between American Whitewater and the Coast Guard to save lives for recreational paddlers, including standup paddleboarders and inflatable boat users. The goal is to find ways to communicate safety messages effectively, such as through signage or hang tags on equipment.

Lizzy Scully (08:56):

When will that project be completed?

Luc Mehl (08:58):

Sometime this calendar year. The project involves updating an existing eight-page document which is a valuable resource. The focus is on emphasizing what really matters for safety. To do this, we analyze data on the main causes of accidents and try to address these in our messaging.

Lizzy Scully (10:06):

What other projects are you working on?

Luc Mehl (10:06):

Another project involves improving our collection of data on close calls or near misses. This freely available data can provide insights that help to avoid worst-case outcomes.

Lizzy Scully (10:44):

Tell me briefly about your podcast.

Luc Mehl (10:52):

It’s not quite a podcast yet. It began as audio recordings of guest speakers for a wilderness risk management and trip planning course I teach. The topics covered include decision-making tools and stress continuum. I’ll continue to expand it if people find the content meaningful.

Lizzy Scully (12:10):

Fantastic. I’ll include a link to it in the show notes for this podcast so that interested listeners can check it out.

Luc Mehl (12:16):

Great.

Lizzy Scully (12:16):

Alright, let’s get started. Most of this interview will focus on what you’ve mentioned in our emails and meetings with the American Packrafting Association’s Safety and Education Committee, where we both serve. I’d like to focus particularly on ‘close calls’ in packrafting. We’ll discuss various types of close calls later. But one recurring concern is that people are advancing when they shouldn’t be, perhaps because they overestimate their abilities or presume that their group’s collective experience will bail them out.

Why do people aim for advancement, and what are the potential issues?

Luc Mehl (13:14):

Indeed, these questions aren’t easy as they’re quite personal. Many of us, including myself, are goal-oriented. That’s part of the reward: setting a goal and achieving it. Leveling up feels like a natural progression that can lead us into trouble. There’s also the influence of what media portrays as normal. For instance, backcountry skiing is often showcased only as steep spines in Valdez, Alaska, which I find somewhat annoying.

Backcountry skiing can also be gentle, forested hills that are always below the avalanche angle. This is often overlooked in the media. The same applies to packrafting. My videos may give the impression that packrafting is about conquering a 20-foot waterfall. But packrafting can also be a quiet day out on a lake with your kids, enjoying hot dogs on the beach. So there’s the internal part of goal setting, and then there’s the external part – what are our peers or media telling us this sport is?

Lizzy Scully (15:18):

Those could be reasons for people wanting to level up. So, in your opinion, when is it appropriate to level up, and when is it not?

Luc Mehl (15:31):

That’s a question I’ve pondered a lot, both for myself and in observing others. Everyone who takes my course asks, “How do I know when I’m ready for Class X?” My current standpoint, which may change over time, is that I want to pay more attention to my ability to assist others. This shifts the focus from personal accomplishment to community safety.

For example, if I can help you in the middle of a Class III rapid, it suggests that I have good control over the boat and can read the water effectively. Could I help you in Class IV water?

Luc Mehl (16:18):

I’m trying to transition to a state where I can help. If I can easily assist you in Class II, then I’m probably ready for Class III. Here’s another way to gauge this: use a simple plus one, zero, minus one metric. This method helps you self-assess your comfort level.

Luc Mehl (17:04):

Go around the group and each person gives their score. A plus one means you’re able to navigate safely and assist others. Zero means you can only take care of yourself. Minus one means you’re at your limit and need help. Add up the scores to see if the group is positive, neutral, or negative. This simple metric can help determine if the goal is appropriate.

Lizzy Scully (18:04):

I think that’s a great idea. Then there are people who aren’t sure of their capabilities. We’ve discussed creating a questionnaire to help them identify their skill level.

Luc Mehl (18:34):

That’s a challenging task. But ideally, we should be able to evaluate each other during a Class II run before moving on to tougher routes. It’s difficult to self-evaluate and identify gaps in skills.

Lizzy Scully (20:06):

We’ve implemented a guide at Four Corners to better screen people. But even with questions addressing potential gaps, some individuals still overestimate their abilities.

Luc Mehl (21:38):

That’s similar to the standard certification process. It’s beneficial to have a certificate of completion or technical certification.

Luc Mehl (22:52):

Leveling up and experiencing close calls don’t necessarily have to be part of the same conversation. The process of leveling up should be conscious of consequences. It’s important to push out of your comfort zone, but only in the right environment with the right team. On remote trips, I don’t level up because the stakes are too high.

Lizzy Scully (24:19):

I love that and I love the segue into close calls. I know there’s a lot more to talk about there, so please dive in.

Luc Mehl (24:25):

Alright. Close calls. Let’s start with establishing a common terminology. It’s not my terminology, but it’s helpful because I misunderstood this 10 years ago. I thought a close call was where I almost died, but it’s not that extreme. A close call is any situation where things nearly resulted in an injury or death.

So, if you break your pinky, that’s an injury, not a close call. In the paddling world, the most common close call is a scary swim. This gets a bit hard to define because it’s not black and white. What might be a scary swim for me might not be for you based on your comfort in the water, experience, and strength as a swimmer.

Luc Mehl (25:19):

What is a normal swim for me or a scary swim for me is a spectrum. So, I just want to acknowledge that there are many dimensions to this, depending on the individual and the actual event, which partly explains why it’s hard to get people to formally share close calls. It’s not like, “aha, I just reached close call status.” For me, it’s been pretty clear when something was almost bad.

One story that stuck with me was talking with a friend, a great paddler, who had a scary swim and said, “I gave up in the middle of the swim.” He thought that was it. He gave up and then he flushed out and had a full recovery. That, to me, was a close call. That was almost really bad. I can think of a few of my worst swims and be like, gosh, that was bad.

Then I can think of hundreds of other swims that were just like, oh, that was just a swim. I do this. I fall out of my boat, I get back in, I practice. I’m proficient at it.

Let me pause. I’ve done a lot of talking. Anything you’d want to clarify within that?

Lizzy Scully (26:34):

No, I just want to reiterate that close calls are hard to categorize because they vary for every person depending on their skill level, how they feel on a given day, what river they’re on, how much fear they have, and factors from their personal life.

Luc Mehl (26:54):

Absolutely. It’s subjective, right? This is deeply human. With that as a definition, let’s discuss why we think it’s so important. This is well documented in the manufacturing sector. There are many close calls in the workspace.

Safety science recognizes that there’s a zone of safety drift, and it’s a function of management, culture, and complacency. It’s easy to drift towards an incident where someone gets injured or worse. What we want to do, and what the packraft community is doing better than almost any other group that I’m aware of, except maybe the avalanche community, is drifting in the opposite direction.

We have this baseline target in mind, which is no fatalities, even though we bring in many new paddlers each year.

Luc Mehl (28:01):

We’re trying to drift towards safety by embracing and fostering a culture of safety. A significant way to do that is to share incidents where things almost went wrong. I can give you a great short example. The little hardware that used to come with deck bags on various boats, both alpaca and capelli, had non-locking gates on them. I thought these non-locking gates were weird because I knew from my fundamentals of river safety that I wasn’t supposed to have any non-locking hardware. It seemed like this was going to get someone in trouble.

But then I didn’t hear anything about it, so I thought maybe it’s not that big of a deal. Then I had a conversation with someone who may or may not want to be unnamed.

Lizzy Scully (28:52):

It’s fine, it happens.

Luc Mehl (28:54):

And you mentioned, “Yeah, the little strap on the back of my shoe got clipped into that thing on a rapid in the Grand Canyon.” That’s a big deal. When I shared that story, I instantly heard from five other people who had similar experiences. This data was out there, but without your sharing, me asking, and me having access to a bunch of pack rafters through Facebook or whatever to get that and then say, “statistically this is a big deal,” it would have remained unknown. You could justify it by saying, “oh, that thing’s rated for 10 pounds and it’s supposed to break,” but I don’t want to count on my gear to break to keep me safe. My gear breaks when I don’t want it to. It doesn’t break when I do want it to. That’s a messy game.

So that was a great learning experience for me to understand the value of a close call. Why would you volunteer to tell the world, “Hey, this unlocking carabiner…”? For you, it was scary, but it was scary for 10 minutes and then you had another seven days of awesome river time. It was just a small blip. It’s a big challenge to figure out how to collect this data. We can talk about that too, but I just want to make sure again, if you want any clarification.

Lizzy Scully (30:14):

No, that’s good. I feel like we’ve clarified. Let’s move on. I want to describe some different close calls besides that one, some other close calls, just so that people have a better idea. Maybe something like that carabiner incident that seems kind of innocuous, but every person who comes to every one of my courses, well, not every person, but 50% of them bring non-locking carabiners. I can’t break this habit of people using non-locking carabiners. So, what are some other close calls where people might not think about them, but they could potentially lead to a bad incident?

Luc Mehl (30:53):

I’m surprised to hear about your observation with non-locking carabiners, because I don’t see that at all up here. Maybe one out of 12 participants will have something that doesn’t lock. I think that’s probably a result of Alaska’s boating community being very tight-knit. Word travels fast.

When we share those stories, like the one about Brad Mickeljohn getting clipped into his boat and having his face drag along the gravel on the bottom of the river, it resonates. When I heard that story I was like, “okay, we’re done with non-locking carabiners.” That sentiment spread through our community quite quickly so that now it would be really weird to see a non-locking carabiner.

But I’m not answering your question again. The point here is how effective it is to share that story, for you to tell me about your experience, for Brad to tell me about his experience, and then to find a way to share it. You’ll have to remind me of your original question. I got totally derailed there.

Lizzy Scully (31:56):

Some other close calls?

Luc Mehl (31:58):

Right, other examples. Okay, so 98% of the time what we’re talking about are scary swims, and that is you fell out of your boat and maybe got separated from the boat. If it’s continuous rapids, I am way more concerned about the consequences on a continuous rapid than I am on pool drop. Just in case people aren’t familiar with pool drop, it’s like a discrete rapid. It’s steep and short, and then you’re in a pool, hence the name pool drop. If I’m on a continuous Class III, it’s a couple miles long,

I’m a lot more worried about that than a pool drop Class IV in terms of consequence. So a lot of people, myself included, have gone on some long swims where it just takes a lot of time to get in the boat. You are strongest on your first attempt to climb back into your boat, and then each attempt after that you get weaker.

Luc (32:57):

There was a fatality in Alaska, probably eight years ago now, where the guy tried to get back his boat three times. He was super accomplished, a Class IV boater with training and a good team, but he was in ice-cold, glacial water. He was wearing the suit, he had all the equipment, but even so, just the fight of getting banged around trying to get in the boat, you just get exhausted.

So if that doesn’t end up well, then it’s a close call or an injury or a fatality. That’s mostly what we’re worried about, I think, are the scary swims. I think of that, I just gave you the example of a long one. There’s also this scary swim that is getting stuck in a hole and recirculating. I think that’s way less common statistically, but that might be a bias based on my geography and my group of friends.

Lizzy Scully (33:48):

Okay, thank you for that. So, what do you think are some good ways to avoid close calls? To address close calls?

Luc (34:08):

Hazards will occur even if we choose the right objectives and partners. We can’t guarantee a safe experience on a river as we don’t have control. In risk management discussions, we refer to objective hazards, environmental hazards, variables over which we have no control. These include the water’s temperature, volume, speed, level, the rocks in the river, and the surrounding wood. In my Swiftwater classes, I start by stating that I can’t guarantee a safe experience.

My goal is to reduce exposure and vulnerability, but I can’t assure safety.

Luc Mehl (35:06):

No way. We’re outside, on moving water. Close calls are part of the game. The best ways to reduce the odds are to partner with trained individuals who are good at communicating, assessing risk, and comfortable with portaging when necessary.

Also, choose objectives that match your skill set, your group’s abilities, and the water level on that particular day. Furthermore, push harder in low-risk environments and less in higher-risk situations. These practices can help prevent unexpected swims. However, even the best of us will make mistakes and may lose a boat or have a scary swim because we’re on water.

Lizzy Scully (36:06):

Okay, good point. I’d like to discuss something I heard in that podcast. I’m sorry, I’ve forgotten the name. What was the podcast you and Sarah did? What’s its name? I’ll link to it.

Luc Mehl (36:20):

Humans Outside.

Lizzy Scully (36:21):

So, it was an excellent podcast you spoke about. I hadn’t considered this, and I’m kind of shocked. I’ve been a climber for 25 years, and I’ve always wondered, how can I be the best partner? I’ve always looked at how they can be a good partner. What are the ways that I can learn to be the best partner that I can be?

Luc Mehl (36:47):

Yes. Well, I’m still on this path as well, so when I figure it out, I’ll send you an email with all the secrets. I’m spending a lot of time just as you said. I’ve been at climbing for 20 years, but I’ve had my decades of outdoor time too. There’s something about age, experience, and losses that at this point, I’m spending a lot of time in the headspace of how do I be the best partner?

And then with my outreach and outdoor education work, how do I help other people become their best partner? This is largely about the human factor, as we would say in the avalanche world. How do we get better at managing risk, anticipating the things that go wrong, making decisions, managing our group, managing our expectations, and ensuring that everyone has a good time? I am actively trying to build a toolbox.

Luc Mehl (37:44):

And that’s how I’m thinking about it. It’s how I’m visualizing it. I don’t know which tool I’m going to use when, but I want to have a bunch of tools in there. If the screwdriver doesn’t work, I’ll try pliers.

The plus one zero minus one that we discussed for self-assessment is one of the tools in the box, and it doesn’t have to be water, it can be anything. Another similar example where you do a quick self-assessment comes from the Air National Guards’ pararescue teams. The people who jump out of the helicopters do their morning briefs, make the plan, and then go around with the group. They use a one, two, or three system. One is like, I’m good to go with this plan.

Luc Mehl (38:28):

The third part of the plan is not good, and the second part is somewhere in the middle. The best part is that if there are people in the middle, we discuss what we can do to move them into the top zone. We consider if we can add some equipment, bring in another staff member, or arrange for some training next year. This process helps us identify what we need to discuss and what we can control or change. I love this tool, which I call the 1, 2, 3 tool. I’ve developed a dozen of these tools, many of which I’ve picked up while teaching avalanche courses in the winter.

Luc Mehl (39:12):

I’ve picked up some of these from my paddling partners, like the plus one zero minus one tool, which came from a participant in a class. He learned it in Missoula and shared it with me. I want to become proficient at managing human factors, group dynamics, and risk. I also want to develop the technical skills needed to respond when things go wrong. This might mean undergoing swift water training or wilderness medicine training.

I believe these are key pieces of the puzzle, but there are others as well. For me, another important aspect is leadership, which can be informal. It’s about anticipating potential problems and understanding people’s comfort levels. Every year, I’m getting better at recognizing when someone is a bit out of their comfort zone and managing our objectives accordingly.

Luc Mehl (40:24):

As I teach more, I’m getting better at anticipating potential problems, like someone swimming around that corner. Being able to foresee such situations helps me prepare and respond better. Whether it’s a technical response, being nearby, or suggesting they walk around, there are many ways to be a better partner. I’m constantly working with these elements.

Lizzy Scully (40:48):

These elements don’t seem nebulous to me. They’re quite concrete, actionable things people can consider. As I mentioned before the interview, when I started adventuring in my twenties, I didn’t have podcasts or a mentor like Luc Mehl. But now, there’s a wealth of information available in various forms. The advice you’re giving is practical and helpful.

Luc Mehl (41:37):

I’m glad to hear that because I’ve been reading books and academic journal articles trying to identify actionable items. I’ve been learning about game theory and other interesting stuff. That’s why I’m focusing on this toolbox. I bring these tools into my risk management plans and avalanche courses. I’m constantly refining my toolbox, discarding tools I don’t use frequently, and adding new ones that are useful.

The plus one zero minus one tool is one such actionable item. But at the same time, I should mention the counter-argument. Yes, we have access to podcasts, friends, mentors, and other resources, but we need to avoid falling into a trap.

Luc Mehl (42:42):

I believe that the outdoor industry markets the idea that equipment and training are sufficient for preparedness. However, they often overlook the importance of experience. I recently discussed this with a friend, which reminded me how crucial experience is. It’s invaluable to have swift water rescue training and practical knowledge. It’s equally beneficial to have years of experience in understanding what could go wrong and how to respond. However, gaining experience can be challenging if you only have limited opportunities to practice, like every other Saturday. You should assess yourself in terms of formal education, equipment, and experience to make the right decisions.

Lizzy Scully (43:52):

I would add, it’s okay to take it slow, even though it might be difficult. When I was younger, I wouldn’t consider this, but now, I’m okay with taking my time with packrafting to avoid unnecessary risks.

Luc Mehl (44:29):

I wish you could solve this problem and then let me know. It’s difficult to recognize the importance of caution until you experience loss. I didn’t care until I lost three friends within three years. As I grow older, it becomes easier to have these conversations and turn around when needed.

However, it’s hard for younger people, who are eager to take on challenges, to understand this until they experience a loss or serious injury.

Lizzy Scully (45:27):

I don’t have a solution.

Luc Mehl (45:30):

If we had a solution, we’d be in the right place. The solution might be to have conversations, make it cool to care, and be curious about changes in conditions. But it’s easier said than done, especially for older individuals.

Lizzy Scully (45:54):

However, I believe that conversations, mentorship, and education can make people consider these things. The education I received in college was beneficial. Encouraging these conversations and providing opportunities for education can equip people with the tools they need to succeed.

Luc Mehl (46:43):

It would be useful to speak with some younger individuals. I’ve observed many young people eager to learn in my swift water and avalanche courses. It would be interesting to explore how to promote caution without the need for loss.

Lizzy Scully (47:01):

Okay, I’ll consider that and see if I can find some young people to talk to at the roundup. Let’s move on to the strategy and decision-making process you and Sarah use. When you two ask each other, “What’s the right thing to do?” it seems like a simple, straightforward strategy that encourages dialogue.

Luc Mehl (47:27):

Yes, it’s a tool in our toolbox. We call it “anchoring”. I can’t take credit for it, as it comes from aviation safety. The original concept is “identify the baseline” which means perfect safety performance, but that prompt didn’t resonate with me. What resonated with me was the question, “What’s the right thing to do?” This prompt anchors our decision-making process.

Luc Mehl (48:23):

What’s great is how often the answer is clear, even when it initially seems difficult with multiple options. When we apply the question, the right thing to do usually becomes evident and that becomes our new target or anchor. I think of it as a bullseye. If we don’t do that thing exactly, we have to justify it strongly. Let me give a specific example.

Luc Mehl (49:11):

On a ski day, we had a long approach, longer than expected. We reached the base where we were supposed to start climbing after two hours of flat travel. One partner wanted to head back, another wanted to continue. I, being goal-oriented, wanted to ski the lines. We were being pulled in all directions and our conversation about what to do was inefficient. We paused and asked, “What’s the right thing to do?” The answer was clear: we don’t send someone back alone in avalanche terrain. That shifted our target from reaching the summit to getting everyone back to the car safely.

Luc Mehl (50:05):

With that new target as our bullseye, we tried to justify other options like letting that person go down on their own or waiting for us to finish a few laps. We couldn’t justify any of those due to lack of proper equipment.

So, we all packed up and went back down. It wasn’t a big deal. The most valuable thing from the experience was how easy it was to identify the right thing to do and that it wasn’t a big deal to turn around. That’s the concept of anchoring and using the prompt “What’s the right thing to do?”

Lizzy Scully (50:55):

That’s a great tool. Different strategies might resonate with different people. Even if one tool sticks with someone, that’s beneficial because they now have an additional tool to work with. I have a question from APE board member Patrick Doe, who wants to know what you think the community can do better in regards to safety culture. There’s a lot of awareness, but connecting that to culture and practice seems to not have progressed much.

Luc Mehl (51:29):

I’d like to know Patrick’s perspective on why he feels it’s not progressing. From my perspective, we’re doing a great job. It’s time for everyone to pat themselves on the back for fostering a culture of safety. We’re doing it well, and it’s not just us. Other communities have noticed our success. Of course, there’s always room for improvement, but it’s important to acknowledge our success. We should congratulate ourselves on being an international community dedicated to safety.

Luc Mehl (52:51):

So, what can we do better? I want to improve. The close calls part is significant. It’s not an easy fix, but it offers the most reward once we figure it out. Yet, it has been challenging to understand. I collaborated with American Whitewater to add close calls to their accident database. This was a significant move. There was a lot of resistance, but they eventually implemented it. Since then, two people have submitted close calls, not just for packrafting, but for all paddle sports.

It’s difficult to gather this information. Therefore, one of my side projects has been to find ways to incentivize close calls. I’ve discussed with some Coast Guard folks and others, trying to figure out what we can do with Alpaca. Could we do a gear giveaway each year? I’m still working on that and hope to launch something for this year’s culture of safety push.

Luc (54:01):

What stands out to me is the need to identify what we’re missing. Like the issue with the non-locking carabiner, what’s happening that we aren’t aware of because it didn’t result in fatalities.

The fact that we only had two fatalities last year, that’s a victory. We’ve done well with our rapidly growing user base. And if I were to add something to the list, it would be about determining when it’s appropriate to level up and choose the right destination. We need to figure out how to transition from the mindset of Class III, check the box, I’m ready for Class IV. It’s not that simple. Especially in the packraft community, where our whitewater boats are so capable and stable, it’s easy to see progression as linear without recognizing the value of taking time to master smaller maneuvers like catching eddies and peeling out.

Lizzy Scully  (55:06):

I appreciate how you brought it back to the beginning of the conversation. As we’ve been talking for nearly an hour, I don’t want to take up more of your time. Is there anything else you’d like to share about what you’re doing or anything else I haven’t asked you about?

Luc Mehl (55:30):

No, I don’t really have anything else. I’m excited that we spent so much time talking about close calls and everything else has been relevant too, so it’s all under the same objective for me.

Lizzy Scully  (55:47):

Excellent. One last thing, could I pay you to reprint the section on Brad Mickeljohn using non-locking carabiners and being dragged on the river floor? I’d like to persuade people to stop bringing non-locking carabiners on our trips.

Luc Mehl (56:05):

Yes, it’s one of the inserts in my book. You could just photocopy it if that’s what you mean.

Lizzy Scully  (56:15):

I’d prefer to take it and put it on our blog, attributing it to your book. I want to say, “This is why I don’t want you to bring non-locking carabiners. Read this,” and then share it widely, perhaps even on Instagram, to start a conversation about this. Maybe I should also share my own story on Instagram as it could have ended badly.

Luc Mehl (56:40):

Let’s try to coordinate on both of those things. I wanted to create a system for submitting close calls and to get funded for this process. The climbing industry, the boating industry, everyone wants this, but it’s a problem no one has solved yet. That’s why I approached the Coast Guard, to see if they’d fund a study where we try different methods to collect close calls and see what works.

But I didn’t see any progress with that idea, and it was hard to figure out. What’s going to happen is that I’m just going to create a form, and we’ll see how that goes. It won’t cost anything. That will be my push for this year’s culture of safety, to try to get people to submit close calls. That would be a great time for you to share your story and for me to share that excerpt from my book. I think I can find that part in the PDF version of my book and just crop it out, which would be the easiest way for me to provide it.

Lizzy Scully  (57:51):

Okay, that sounds great. Depending on your questions, we could include some of them in this big survey we’re going to conduct.

Luc Mehl (58:01):

Or just inform folks that this close call survey exists, that it’s out there.

Lizzy Scully  (58:07):

I’d be happy to do that.

Luc Mehl (58:09):

It doesn’t exist yet, but…

Lizzy Scully  (58:11):

Well, the survey is at its beginning stages too. I do think that the prospect of winning so many things will motivate people to answer questions, so consider adding some questions to the survey. People will have to answer those if they want to win the boat, the packraft paddle, or the PFD. Just consider it.

Luc Mehl (58:36):

Yeah, that sounds great.

Lizzy Scully  (58:37):

Okay. Well, thank you. This was wonderful. I learned a lot and I appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. As always, Luc, it’s a pleasure to talk to you.

Luc Mehl (58:45):

Likewise, it’s enjoyable for me to get my thoughts organized. I could talk about this all day.

Lizzy Scully  (58:54):

I understand. That’s why we like you. Cool. Well, thank you and have a wonderful day.

Luc Mehl (59:00):

Thanks, let me know if you need anything.

Lizzy Scully  (59:02):

I will, thanks so much.

Luc Mehl (59:03):

Alright.

Lizzy Scully  (59:04):

Goodbye.

Lizzy Scully (59:07):

Thank you for joining us for the Beginner’s Guide to Packrafting and Bike Rafting podcast. You can follow us on Podbean or Spotify. You can also find the show notes on the Four Corners Guides.com blog and on the podcast page. If you have any questions, comments, or suggestions, please email us at [email protected]. Thank you for listening.